Zompist Bboard Again

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:32 am his is exactly the kind of demographic the left should try to win over, and doesn't. Again, I get why. That kind of kids are nasty pieces of work already, I should know, I was one. I sure as heck don't want to be spending time around my 20-year old self and as I recall, I barely could stand myself back then. And yet, you know, these are kids that are willing to learn and understand things (and will end up running the show.)

Ugh, I get so tired of complaints about what "the left" is and isn't doing. This is exactly the demographic that ContraPoints set out to target, applying exactly your logic: if we don't try to reach these boys where they're at, the right will scoop them up. To that end, she's defended giving her videos titles like "Are traps gay?" (incorporating an offensive term for transwomen) in order for them to show up in certain online searches. (She has 1.3 million subscribers. Her "Are traps gay?" video has 2.5 million views. Her video on incels has 4.1 million.) She's not the only example by any means, just one of the more successful.

Moreover, what this analysis omits is that the Internet is 100 times worse for a queer trans woman than for a straight cis white man. You say you understand why women give up on trying to reach young men, but I wonder if you really do. I wonder if you appreciate the sheer amount and viciousness of the abuse Wynn and others receive just for existing in a space that straight white cis men feel entitled to dominate. I think if you did you'd be more likely to ask the question: Why aren't straight white leftist cis men doing more to leverage their privilege in order to make this spaces tolerable for women, BIPOC, and queers? Instead, they're often part of the problem, regularly showing up whenever more marginalised folks attempt to discuss these issues in order to say "not all men" or concern-troll about how only mealy-mouthed bothsidesism will prevent us from alienating the very people we need to win over.

Straight white cis men are already a minority in the USA and other countries. In ten years, they will be an even smaller minority. That's why they're so desperate and angry. The coming generation is the brownest and queerest yet. It makes a lot of sense to concentrate our efforts into making spaces where these folks can thrive without continually worrying about catering to the whims and prejudices of a shrinking population of denialists. I don't think we should write them off completely (I've donated to the Free Radicals Project after all), but I think we need to give careful consideration into who we demand reach out to them and why.

Ares Land wrote:The left isn't bigoted; but it's not making enough jokes. Make fun of the aging old fart terrified of trans girls. Don't be afraid to make fun of yourself.

Again, I don't know what straw lefties you're talking about. Here the late-night shows are dominated by liberals and leftists. Trevor Noah, the host of The Daily Show, was the fourth highest-earning comedian in 2019. (Above him were Gaffigan, Seinfeld, and Hart, all of whose comedy I would describe as largely apolitical but representing an essentially mainstream liberal worldview. You have to go to 9th place Jeff Dunham--who made half what Noah did--to find a truly conservative voice.) Conservative comedians are well-represented on radio and in podcasts, but their appeal tends to be pretty narrow. (An outstanding exception is The Joe Rogan Experience; this isn't easily classified according to traditional political categories, but overall I would say that it supports a conservative worldview.)

Ares Land wrote:(South Park is a great example, BTW. The target demographic was I believe very liberal when it started airing. It wasn't afraid to shoot at conservative targets when they deserved it, it was viciously funny, and the right-wing messages they got through were either so subtle you didn't notice, or so over the top you couldn't help laughing.)

What South Park is a great example of is how, if you don't make a conscious effort to be progressive, you'll end up conservative by default. Their demographic wasn't so much liberal as libertarian and has only gotten moreso as they've alienated everyone else. The show targets "everybody", which is a thing you can do when you're privileged white suburban boys who will be fine no matter what happens. Of course, by shitting on the same marginalised groups who get shat upon by everyone else, they ended up reinforcing an unjust status quo. To the extent that the show has a political message, it's "caring is lame" (which--to be fair--seems to be mostly what US conservatism is about any more).

That Free Radicals campaign seems good.

You're right about comedy, and it's true for the UK too.
It's not in comedy that the left is lacking.

The makers of South Park are members of Republican and Libertarian parties. I stopped watching South Park as a 17 year old after their 'trash the rainforest' episode. They explicitly advocated the awful destruction that some right-wingers just do by accident while being greedy. They end up more destructive while claiming to be in the middle.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:44 am

Vijay wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 10:00 pm I can't think of a single online majority-white space without white supremacists. I assure you, I end up on such spaces entirely by accident. I have absolutely no interest in seeking out white supremacists.

Sadly, there's nothing surprising about that. It was already like that twenty years ago. They're like Internet roaches.

The internet used to be a haven for geeks, porn and white supremacists. Now everyone and their mum's on it.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:27 amThe makers of South Park are members of Republican and Libertarian parties. I stopped watching South Park as a 17 year old after their 'trash the rainforest' episode. They explicitly advocated the awful destruction that some right-wingers just do by accident while being greedy. They end up more destructive while claiming to be in the middle.

I thought they both identified as libertarian. Actually belonging to a political party seems dangerous close to the "caring too much" they so clearly despise.

Trey Parker wrote:What we're sick of—and it's getting even worse—is: you either like Michael Moore or you wanna fuckin' go overseas and shoot Iraqis. There can't be a middle ground. Basically, if you think Michael Moore's full of shit, then you are a super-Christian right-wing whatever. And we're both just pretty middle-ground guys. We find just as many things to rip on on the left as we do on the right. People on the far left and the far right are the same exact person to us.

Matt Stone wrote:I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:14 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:32 am his is exactly the kind of demographic the left should try to win over, and doesn't. Again, I get why. That kind of kids are nasty pieces of work already, I should know, I was one. I sure as heck don't want to be spending time around my 20-year old self and as I recall, I barely could stand myself back then. And yet, you know, these are kids that are willing to learn and understand things (and will end up running the show.)

Ugh, I get so tired of complaints about what "the left" is and isn't doing. This is exactly the demographic that ContraPoints set out to target, applying exactly your logic: if we don't try to reach these boys where they're at, the right will scoop them up. To that end, she's defended giving her videos titles like "Are traps gay?" (incorporating an offensive term for transwomen) in order for them to show up in certain online searches. (She has 1.3 million subscribers. Her "Are traps gay?" video has 2.5 million views. Her video on incels has 4.1 million.) She's not the only example by any means, just one of the more successful.

Moreover, what this analysis omits is that the Internet is 100 times worse for a queer trans woman than for a straight cis white man.

Since Ares Land was talking about "the left", and "the left" doesn't consist just of queer trans women, I don't really see how your point applies here. What's wrong with asking the more privileged ones among the people on the left to do what Ares Land is asking for?

Straight white cis men are already a minority in the USA and other countries. In ten years, they will be an even smaller minority.

What "other countries" are you talking about? Sure, if you look at just straight white cis men, then they're a minority in every place that's even a little bit less than 100 percent straight white cis. But I probably don't have to tell you that bigotry has substantial support among straight white cis women, too, and as far as I can see, combined straight white cis men and straight white cis women are still an overwhelming majority in pretty much every rich Western country other than the USA. And while this is the US Politics Thread, your post is directed at a European - to be specific, a European from a country where outright fascists seem to be very close to taking power next year. How are long-term demographic trends going to help with that?

That's why they're so desperate and angry. The coming generation is the brownest and queerest yet.

Unfortunately, even that doesn't necessarily guarantee much for the left:

https://twitter.com/EricLevitz/status/1 ... 0187873281

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/02/us/p ... texas.html

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:44 am

Vijay wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 10:00 pm I can't think of a single online majority-white space without white supremacists. I assure you, I end up on such spaces entirely by accident. I have absolutely no interest in seeking out white supremacists.

Sadly, there's nothing surprising about that. It was already like that twenty years ago. They're like Internet roaches.

Right, so I really don't have to expend a shred of effort to find people who disagree with me politically, to put it lightly.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:14 am Ugh, I get so tired of complaints about what "the left" is and isn't doing.

I am concerned that issues that I happen to care about aren't making a lot of progress and that the majority rejects ideas that I happen to agree with. Believe me, I would be very happy to be proven wrong!

This is exactly the demographic that ContraPoints set out to target, applying exactly your logic: if we don't try to reach these boys where they're at, the right will scoop them up. To that end, she's defended giving her videos titles like "Are traps gay?" (incorporating an offensive term for transwomen) in order for them to show up in certain online searches. (She has 1.3 million subscribers. Her "Are traps gay?" video has 2.5 million views. Her video on incels has 4.1 million.) She's not the only example by any means, just one of the more successful.

So, yeah, people came up with the same ideas (which is pretty reassuring) and it's even working. I mean it seems my logic isn't completely faulty? (I didn't know that, um, charming slur though nor do I think it's a great idea to use it.)

Moreover, what this analysis omits is that the Internet is 100 times worse for a queer trans woman than for a straight cis white man. You say you understand why women give up on trying to reach young men, but I wonder if you really do.

I don't "really know" it in the sense of having been through it, obviously. But yeah, I do know what happens.

Why aren't straight white leftist cis men doing more to leverage their privilege in order to make this spaces tolerable for women, BIPOC, and queers? Instead, they're often part of the problem, regularly showing up whenever more marginalised folks attempt to discuss these issues in order to say "not all men" or concern-troll about how only mealy-mouthed bothsidesism will prevent us from alienating the very people we need to win over.

Yes, that is a very good point. I believe at some point, someone's gotta educate what I'd call the silent majority. But, yeah, the burden should not fall on marginalized folks.

Straight white cis men are already a minority in the USA and other countries. In ten years, they will be an even smaller minority. That's why they're so desperate and angry.

That's indeed the crux of the problem.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 12:08 pm And while this is the US Politics Thread, your post is directed at a European - to be specific, a European from a country where outright fascists seem to be very close to taking power next year. How are long-term demographic trends going to help with that?

It's all right, we're talking US politics here
The demographic panic here is very real, and perhaps even more palpable than in the US, even though it's entirely unfounded. I suppose these things are getting increasingly global.

The coming generation is the brownest and queerest yet. It makes a lot of sense to concentrate our efforts into making spaces where these folks can thrive without continually worrying about catering to the whims and prejudices of a shrinking population of denialists.

Privilege being what it is, it's likely to stay where it is. And there's nothing impossible about a privileged class being in the minority. There is a strong chance straight cis white males are still going to run the show for the foreseeable future.
Plus, what Raphael said about demographics not translating neatly into polical position.
I don't know how things are in the US in that respect; what I do know is that we sure got a lot of conservative queer folk. Black people, or people of North African ancestry are very socially conservative, for a wide variety of reasons.

Besides, I'm not talking about catering to the whims and prejudice of denialists. I'm talking about informing and educating people. Leaving centrists or right-winger in a separate bubble is precisely what you don't want.

but I think we need to give careful consideration into who we demand reach out to them and why.

Which is indeed a very good point!

What South Park is a great example of is how, if you don't make a conscious effort to be progressive, you'll end up conservative by default.

I had figured it was always meant to be conservative. Well, libertarian. Same difference.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:12 pm Right, so I really don't have to expend a shred of effort to find people who disagree with me politically, to put it lightly.

In case that wasn't clear, no, I don't believe in reaching out to Nazis. You don't talk to Nazis, except for the purpose of scratching out the thin veneer of dog-whistling, which I believe is a public service.

I'm talking about reaching out to people inhabiting the thankfully wide breath of political opinions between the radical left and white supremacy.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:25 pmIn case that wasn't clear, no, I don't believe in reaching out to Nazis. You don't talk to Nazis, except for the purpose of scratching out the thin veneer of dog-whistling, which I believe is a public service.

Oh, nononono, my point was that Moose-Tache's statement about how hard it supposedly is to find opposing views online is compared to the good old days when you'd supposedly see them all the time. Sorry! (I guess I've learned my lesson. I'll try to quote posts more often so it's clear what I'm responding to).

EDIT: I've never seen South Park, but I thought it was supposed to be liberal.
EDIT2: ...goddamn, that first sentence was badly phrased! I meant my point was...that Moose-Tache's statement about how hard it is to find opposing views is wrong. I mean, at least in my case, it's definitely wrong.

One thing to take into consideration is that using terms like "cis", "straight", "white" and "men" (in any combination) as if they were almost derogatory, that there being fewer cis straight white men (proportionally) in the world is a good thing, as if one ought to be ashamed of being a cis straight white man, does not help the problem of cis straight white men turning into fascists. If anything, it pushes them in that direction, as being told that mainstream society hates you for things you had no choice in is a good way to turn one into an extremist of any sort.

Mainstream society already hates many of us who are not cis, straight, white, or men. It does not necessarily push us into extremism; on the contrary, it is very indicative of extremism within mainstream society.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:16 pm Mainstream society already hates many of us who are not cis, straight, white, or men. It does not necessarily push us into extremism; on the contrary, it is very indicative of extremism within mainstream society.

I would make a difference between the reaction prevalent in mainstream society overall from the fascism which is much more an alienated (frequently highly misogynistic) young cis (generally straight) white male thing, even though in recent times the two have blurred.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:22 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:16 pm Mainstream society already hates many of us who are not cis, straight, white, or men. It does not necessarily push us into extremism; on the contrary, it is very indicative of extremism within mainstream society.

I would make a difference between the reaction prevalent in mainstream society overall from the fascism which is much more an alienated (frequently highly misogynistic) young cis (generally straight) white male thing, even though in recent times the two have blurred.

Even if you make that difference, it still hates us. It's just somewhat less explicit about it.

The key thing about fascism with alienated young men is that it gives something for them to identify with and something for them to oppose, i.e. being cis white men in the former case and being against POC's, women (especially feminists), transgender individuals, leftists, and so on in the latter case. This is made easier when they can be put under the impression that something is threatening something they identify with. So when we effectively broadcast that cis straight white men are unwelcome simply in existing, that can actually encourage fascism, by threatening something that alienated young men may identify with. Of course the solution is to give them something else to identify with, e.g. with being working class, and thereby encouraging them to take a different route.

People already effectively broadcast that trans people, gay people, non-white people, and (to some extent) women are unwelcome simply by existing.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 pm People already effectively broadcast that trans people, gay people, non-white people, and (to some extent) women are unwelcome simply by existing.

You are missing the point. Being a white supremacist, e.g., is not simply about opposing non-white people but about being alienated from society and having a need to identify with something, which is filled by identifying with being white, which leads to seeing non-white people as the other, which is reinforced by perceptions of non-white people as being a threat to white people, which further encourages hatred of non-white people. This in turn encourages other people to also become white supremacists. One can try to simplify it as being "they're white, and white people are racist against non-white people because of society", but this overlooks how people actually become white supremacists, and does not answer what to do about it. What there is to do about it is to fill alienated people's need for something to identify with with something other than being white. (This also is reflected by anecdotal cases of people radically switching from one form of extremism to another, e.g. the case of a neo-Nazi who discovered he had Jewish ancestry suddenly becoming hardcore into Judaism.)

What there is to do about it is dismantle the racist society that currently exists so that white supremacy will no longer hold any appeal anyway.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:13 pm What there is to do about it is dismantle the racist society that currently exists so that white supremacy will no longer hold any appeal anyway.

In essence you're saying "don't try to do something about immediate goals", i.e. fighting the spread of white supremacy, "and rather only focus on big, long-term ones", i.e. trying to eliminate racism in society as a whole as a long-term goal. This reminds me of those who try to avoid reforming society today and put off even trying to improve society until "after the revolution".

Trying to eliminate racism is fighting white supremacy.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:20 pm Trying to eliminate racism is fighting white supremacy.

You said "dismantle the racist society that currently exists", i.e. a long-term goal which as stated implies being revolutionary in nature. You did not indicate fighting racism in an incremental process that can be done now, rather than off at some point in the future.

Which is part of dismantling a racist society.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:33 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:25 pmIn case that wasn't clear, no, I don't believe in reaching out to Nazis. You don't talk to Nazis, except for the purpose of scratching out the thin veneer of dog-whistling, which I believe is a public service.

Oh, nononono, my point was that Moose-Tache's statement about how hard it supposedly is to find opposing views online is compared to the good old days when you'd supposedly see them all the time. Sorry! (I guess I've learned my lesson. I'll try to quote posts more often so it's clear what I'm responding to).

No worries! These things happen

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:07 pmOne thing to take into consideration is that using terms like "cis", "straight", "white" and "men" (in any combination) as if they were almost derogatory, that there being fewer cis straight white men (proportionally) in the world is a good thing, as if one ought to be ashamed of being a cis straight white man, does not help the problem of cis straight white men turning into fascists.

Everyone really got this one backwards. It's really because of the background extremism level that we suddenly feel like we should be bothered by it. What is happending is that reactionaries of various flavors have taken to carefully point out any and all instances of agressive language.
There is, for instance, a very long tradition of feminist literature being less than kind to men. Nobody cared about that in the 70s.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 5:33 pmEven if you make that difference, it still hates us. It's just somewhat less explicit about it.

Mainstream indifference and racism are terrible thing, they are hatred and they need to be fought. There's no question about it.
There is, though, such a thing as a lesser evil. Believe me the latest brand of fascism is orders of magnitude worse. What these folk are considering is nothing less than military dictatorship and mass deportations of tens of millions. If these guys come into power, getting rid of them will take civil war. They won't deport tens of millions but they will sure give it their worst.