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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:03 am
by dhok
Both Portuguese and Italian have inverno, which suggests an irregular lenition of *b in this word.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:57 pm
by Kuchigakatai
dhok wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:03 amBoth Portuguese and Italian have
inverno, which suggests an irregular lenition of *b in this word.
Yeah, but consider most h's and many b's pronounced [ B] are reformed spellings from the 18th century in Spanish: hombre and amaba were omne/omre/ombre and amaua/amava before.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:11 pm
by mae
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:18 pm
by Kuchigakatai
I'm not sure whether you guys intend to contradict me or not... I mean, I know about Old Spanish yuierno, but the outcome in medieval pronunciation is irrelevant in the general patterns of today's orthography. Old Spanish had amaua but in today's rules we write amaba. Hence invierno should be regularized to himbierno.
My thinking here is, if Spanish is going to keep etymological h's, b's and v's around, it should at least do it with consistent rules.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:27 pm
by Richard W
But did <b> v. <v> word initially and after consonants once reflect a phonetic difference? It's not so long ago that good Spanish was supposed to distinguish /b/ and /v/ in at least some positions.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:54 am
by missals
Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:27 pm
But did <b> v. <v> word initially and after consonants once reflect a phonetic difference? It's not so long ago that good Spanish was supposed to distinguish /b/ and /v/ in at least some positions.
Yes, I don't know the details of the contrast, but it was different than in Latin and the medieval orthography reflected the medieval pronunciation to one extent or another. But after the contrast was neutralized by the late 1500s, the Academia Real instituted a reform that completely changed the distribution of the letters <b> and <v>, making them conform entirely to the Latin etymology (in principle), with the medieval pronunciation being irrelevant.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:28 am
by mae
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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:45 am
by Nortaneous
Ser wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:18 pmHence invierno should be regularized to himbierno.
Ah, yes, the season of the Himbo Inferno.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:01 pm
by Ryusenshi
Does someone know a language that contrasts velar stops [k, g] and palatal stops [c, ɟ] (or palatalized [kʲ, gʲ])? If you do, could you give me a minimal pair?
I'm trying to write a text to explain the notion of phonemes and allophones. French has noticeable allophony for /k, g/ which are indeed velar [k, g] before back vowels, but palatal [c, ɟ] before front vowels, and I thought it would be nice to show that this distinction can be phonemic in other languages. But I can't find a minimal pair.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:15 pm
by Pabappa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian ... Consonants
Also Irish Gaelic if you call the broad consonants "plain".
some slavic lanmguages have a contrast between plain and palatalized velars, but its minimal because historically those sounds were pushed further forward and became /š/, /s/, etc.
sorry i dont know about minimal pairs but they should be possible to find.
edit: also modern Greek has k vs kʲ, represented orthographically by, e.g. <ko> vs <kio> spellings.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:53 pm
by Ryusenshi
I had already looked at Hungarian, Russian and Irish, but couldn't find a minimal pair.
Thanks for the tip about Greek, though: one article gives Κιάτο [ˈcato] (a town name) and κάτω [ˈkato] (“down”).
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:12 pm
by Zaarin
Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:01 pm
Does someone know a language that contrasts velar stops [k, g] and palatal stops [c, ɟ] (or palatalized [kʲ, gʲ])? If you do, could you give me a minimal pair?
I'm trying to write a text to explain the notion of phonemes and allophones. French has noticeable allophony for /k, g/ which are indeed velar [k, g] before back vowels, but palatal [c, ɟ] before front vowels, and I thought it would be nice to show that this distinction can be phonemic in other languages. But I can't find a minimal pair.
Tsimshian does, as do some of the Athabaskan languages, I believe.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:14 pm
by Vijay
In the Connacht and Ulster varieties of Irish, at least, apparently, this exists:
caor /kiːɾˠ/ 'berry, round thing, ball, glowing object'
cíor /ciːɾˠ/ 'comb, crest, honeycomb, cud'
In Hungarian:
meg [ˈmɛɡ] 'and, plus (as in one plus one)'
megy [ˈmɛɟ] 'to go'
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:50 pm
by Linguoboy
Vijay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:14 pm
In the Connacht and Ulster varieties of Irish, at least, apparently, this exists:
caor /kiːɾˠ/ 'berry, round thing, ball, glowing object'
cíor /ciːɾˠ/ 'comb, crest, honeycomb, cud'
Similarly,
caoch “blind” vs
cíoch “breast”.
These don’t work in Munster, however, where
ao typically represents/e:/. One pair that does work in all dialects is:
ciúb “cube” vs
cúb “coop”
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:24 pm
by Nortaneous
Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:01 pm
Does someone know a language that contrasts velar stops [k, g] and palatal stops [c, ɟ] (or palatalized [kʲ, gʲ])? If you do, could you give me a minimal pair?
I'm trying to write a text to explain the notion of phonemes and allophones. French has noticeable allophony for /k, g/ which are indeed velar [k, g] before back vowels, but palatal [c, ɟ] before front vowels, and I thought it would be nice to show that this distinction can be phonemic in other languages. But I can't find a minimal pair.
Japhug Rgyalrong:
/cʰa/ "alcohol"
/kʰa/ "house"
/co/ "valley"
/kjo/ "drag"
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:28 am
by Ryusenshi
Vijay wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:14 pm
caor /kiːɾˠ/ 'berry, round thing, ball, glowing object'
cíor /ciːɾˠ/ 'comb, crest, honeycomb, cud'
meg [ˈmɛɡ] 'and, plus (as in one plus one)'
megy [ˈmɛɟ] 'to go'
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:50 pm
Similarly,
caoch “blind” vs
cíoch “breast”.
ciúb “cube” vs
cúb “coop”
Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:24 pm
/cʰa/ "alcohol"
/kʰa/ "house"
Great examples. Thank you, everybody.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:20 am
by Tropylium
A few examples from Võro with palatalized velars:
olg /olk/ 'shoulder'
olg' /olkʲ/ 'straw'
vang /ʋɑŋk/ 'handle'
vang' /ʋɑŋkʲ/ 'prisoner'
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:39 am
by quinterbeck
Is there a term for when an underspecified phoneme becomes specified in a certain environment? For example I have underspecified /c/ appearing as [tʲ] and [kʲ] in free variation, but always [tʲ] after /n/. Anyone suggest a better term than 'POA specification'?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:28 am
by dhok
That's kind of like the Americanist concept of a morphophoneme, but not the same--e.g. Menominee has a morphophoneme |N| that is realized as /s/ before /e e: j/ and /n/ before other vowels. But both /n/ and /s/ are independently phonemic.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:35 am
by akam chinjir
Another possibility is "archiphoneme," maybe.