Zompist Bboard Again

One possible explanation (I have seen this written elsewhere) I can think of is not sexism unto itself coming from somewhere, but rather that being so heavily male-dominated is self-perpetuating - women don't want to get into an area that has few women, which results in there being even less women, resulting in a self-perpetuating cycle. How this supposedly got started is back in the day boys had more access to home computers and like than girls, and thus when these people grew up and went off to college, and then to the job market, the incoming population was heavily male-dominated. Of course, as a result, computing came to be associated with "boys and their toys", which dissuaded subsequent women from getting interested in computing even if they had access to computers and could have become involved in programming if they wanted to.

The problem here, though, is that this does not explain the disparity between FOSS developers and the commercial computing job market - there is substantially more women who work as programmers than who are involved in FOSS development.

Some thoughts:

- women do have less free time generally. (Even without children, the difference is noticeable.)
- there can be a certain amount of, well, pissing contests in IT in general and FOSS in particular. Or penis fencing, if you prefer. Men are socialized to take part in these, whether we like it or not. Women tend to see them as toxic. (No question of silk gloves really. I enjoy dick measuring as much as the next guy, I'm afraid, but yeah, I have to admit it's toxic and counter productive.)
-For that matter, taking charge of IT projects, especially complex ones, requires a certain amount of assertiveness. We take a positive view of assertive males, but assertiveness in women registers as agressivity.

Idk guys I think rape is kind of a self-explanatory reason to be intimidated into not going into a field. (I'm not saying it's the only one, but like...really, you're surprised that people avoid an environment where they have a high chance of being violently attacked? Um okay).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:15 pm This leads me to another question, though - why FOSS development? The sexism in our society should affect all areas, not just FOSS development.

One, sexism really does affect "all areas". One subfield after another is being examined, and what should be mild nerdy places are just as bad as the others.

Two... remember the discussion just above about toxic assholes? Are you...not aware... that open source was built and dominated by toxic assholes?

Open source is basically designed as a cocoon that will seem really neat to a certain type of nerd: smart, male, argumentative, endlessly energetic, low on social skills, low on tolerance for rules or credentials. A lot of the things that seem really neat about it are also things that encourage toxicity, and actively discourage attempts to combat it. No surprise that people who don't fit that archetype steer clear of it. (And please don't respond "but it's open to everyone!" No, its not equally open to everyone, that's what people trying to come in have been saying for years.)

(Corporate environments can also be toxic, in many many ways. Some are poisoned by a boyzone attitude too. But that's not as inherent in the system— I've worked for two companies that were actually pretty good for women engineers.)

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:33 pm Idk guys I think rape is kind of a self-explanatory reason to be intimidated into not going into a field. (I'm not saying it's the only one, but like...really, you're surprised that people avoid an environment where they have a high chance of being violently attacked? Um okay).

This does not address my question - this should affect commercial software development just as much as FOSS, if not moreso (since you're actually coming into direct contact with people, at least pre-COVID), whereas most of the time for FOSS you're safely behind a computer screen. Yet we see far more women in commercial software development than we see in FOSS.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:34 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:15 pm This leads me to another question, though - why FOSS development? The sexism in our society should affect all areas, not just FOSS development.

One, sexism really does affect "all areas". One subfield after another is being examined, and what should be mild nerdy places are just as bad as the others.

My question is that if the reason is sexism, then FOSS must be especially bad, and then why is it for only 3% of FOSS developers to be women?

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:34 pm Two... remember the discussion just above about toxic assholes? Are you...not aware... that open source was built and dominated by toxic assholes?

Open source is basically designed as a cocoon that will seem really neat to a certain type of nerd: smart, male, argumentative, endlessly energetic, low on social skills, low on tolerance for rules or credentials. A lot of the things that seem really neat about it are also things that encourage toxicity, and actively discourage attempts to combat it. No surprise that people who don't fit that archetype steer clear of it. (And please don't respond "but it's open to everyone!" No, its not equally open to everyone, that's what people trying to come in have been saying for years.)

(Corporate environments can also be toxic, in many many ways. Some are poisoned by a boyzone attitude too. But that's not as inherent in the system— I've worked for two companies that were actually pretty good for women engineers.)

Well, yes, the people behind FOSS include the Linus Torvaldses, the Richard Stallmans, and the Theo de Raadts of the world, and these sorts of people don't make it the most welcoming of places, and this sort of thing leads itself to the most plausible of explanations. But again, this leads to the conclusion that women simply can't handle these kinds of people while men can - without there being any actual sexism involved - and I honestly don't like this conclusion, because it essentially says in a way that women are weak while men are strong.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:23 pm Some thoughts:

- women do have less free time generally. (Even without children, the difference is noticeable.)

Aside from childcare, what I had seen was it being said that women spend more time doing eldercare as well. However, I don't foresee these as being substantial enough to explain the absolutely tiny proportion of women in FOSS.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:23 pm - there can be a certain amount of, well, pissing contests in IT in general and FOSS in particular. Or penis fencing, if you prefer. Men are socialized to take part in these, whether we like it or not. Women tend to see them as toxic. (No question of silk gloves really. I enjoy dick measuring as much as the next guy, I'm afraid, but yeah, I have to admit it's toxic and counter productive.)

I do acknowledge that these kinds of things are more prominent in FOSS than in many things, even though I am personally lucky to inhabit a corner of FOSS where there is quite little of this overall and which is generally friendly as a whole, Libertarians aside. My question is is this bad enough in itself to account for the 3% figure, or is there something else going on, like FOSS having a reputation for this which dissuades women from even becoming involved in the first place rather than women actually being driven away by this in itself?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:23 pm -For that matter, taking charge of IT projects, especially complex ones, requires a certain amount of assertiveness. We take a positive view of assertive males, but assertiveness in women registers as agressivity.

The question, though, is whether this can take into account the large disparity between commercial software development and FOSS development.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:47 pmyou're actually coming into direct contact with people, at least pre-COVID

What makes you think this is true? My dad makes software for a living. I don't think he's come into direct contact with anyone for commercial purposes in over a dozen years.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:13 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:47 pmyou're actually coming into direct contact with people, at least pre-COVID

What makes you think this is true? My dad makes software for a living. I don't think he's come into direct contact with anyone for commercial purposes in over a dozen years.

Pre-COVID I always worked on site for all the companies I developed software for.

(Of course, my current company has employees who have been working mostly off-site for long periods of time.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:56 pmBut again, this leads to the conclusion that women simply can't handle these kinds of people while men can - without there being any actual sexism involved - and I honestly don't like this conclusion, because it essentially says in a way that women are weak while men are strong.

Funny how when you assume your conclusion at the onset, all roads keep leading you back to it.

Here's a thought: Have you tried talking to women about why they steer clear of FOSS? Or reading what they've written about it? I know it's a pretty radical idea, asking people for their motivations rather than just endlessly concern-trolling about them, but it just might be crazy enough to work.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:38 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:56 pmBut again, this leads to the conclusion that women simply can't handle these kinds of people while men can - without there being any actual sexism involved - and I honestly don't like this conclusion, because it essentially says in a way that women are weak while men are strong.

Funny how when you assume your conclusion at the onset, all roads keep leading you back to it.

My conclusion is not that "women are weak while men are strong"; rather I assume that this not a valid conclusion, so if something leads to this conclusion, it is probably wrong.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:38 pm Here's a thought: Have you tried talking to women about why they steer clear of FOSS? Or reading what they've written about it? I know it's a pretty radical idea, asking people for their motivations rather than just endlessly concern-trolling about them, but it just might be crazy enough to work.

I have read things by people about this subject (I do not recall what proportion of them were written by women). These things say pretty much a lot of the same things as has been said here. FOSS is very unfriendly to new people, women don't have the privilege of having the free time to engage in FOSS, FOSS culture and the people in it are toxic (especially people like Linus Torvalds and Theo de Raadt), and so on.

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but are you saying that corporate software is less problematic than FOSS, at least regarding gender issues? It sounds like I may need to reëvaluate my software choices and even operating system in the future.

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:10 pm Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but are you saying that corporate software is less problematic than FOSS, at least regarding gender issues? It sounds like I may need to reëvaluate my software choices and even operating system in the future.

/facepalm

The solution is to find ways to include women in FOSS, e.g. by trying to avoid toxicity better, not to abandon FOSS for proprietary software.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:55 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:38 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:56 pmBut again, this leads to the conclusion that women simply can't handle these kinds of people while men can - without there being any actual sexism involved - and I honestly don't like this conclusion, because it essentially says in a way that women are weak while men are strong.

Funny how when you assume your conclusion at the onset, all roads keep leading you back to it.

My conclusion is not that "women are weak while men are strong"; rather I assume that this not a valid conclusion, so if something leads to this conclusion, it is probably wrong.

But why do you keep assuming that it does lead to that conclusion?

Let me give you another example that has nothing to do with women at all. I am fascinated by Papuan languages and try to learn what I can of them sitting here at home. However, I am not going to Papua New Guinea to study them. Why not? Because aside from the fact that there is no clear way I would make a living there, PNG has lots of human rights issues, poor infrastructure, and lots of tribal wars that make it very dangerous for anyone to live there.

Does this mean that I'm "too weak" to go to PNG or that I have good reasons not to go there?

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:55 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:38 pm
Funny how when you assume your conclusion at the onset, all roads keep leading you back to it.

My conclusion is not that "women are weak while men are strong"; rather I assume that this not a valid conclusion, so if something leads to this conclusion, it is probably wrong.

But why do you keep assuming that it does lead to that conclusion?

Because if toxicity without sexism per se itself drove people in general off, you would have just as many men fleeing FOSS as women, but this is not true. So that implies that men are more tolerant of toxicity than women. Of course, if said toxicity included pervasive sexism, that would be a different story, as then it would explain why more women are dissuaded from participating in FOSS than men without leading to that conclusion

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:55 pm Let me give you another example that has nothing to do with women at all. I am fascinated by Papuan languages and try to learn what I can of them sitting here at home. However, I am not going to Papua New Guinea to study them. Why not? Because aside from the fact that there is no clear way I would make a living there, PNG has lots of human rights issues, poor infrastructure, and lots of tribal wars that make it very dangerous for anyone to live there.

Does this mean that I'm "too weak" to go to PNG or that I have good reasons not to go there?

What matters is not that you wouldn't go to PNG but that many people wouldn't do so for the very same reasons. But if one portion of the population freely went to PNG without any concerns while another portion, which corresponds to a different demographic, flatly refused to go, that raises questions of why the former group goes but the latter does not. If there were something like pervasive crime aimed at certain populations (e.g. crimes against homosexuals) that would be perfectly understandable.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:06 pmBecause if toxicity without sexism per se itself drove people in general off, you would have just as many men fleeing FOSS as women, but this is not true.

It's not? How many men go into FOSS as opposed to how many go into developing commercial software?

Of course, if said toxicity included pervasive sexism, that would be a different story, as then it would explain why more women are dissuaded from participating in FOSS than men without leading to that conclusion

What is "pervasive" sexism, and how is it different from the sexism everyone in this discussion has been telling you there is in FOSS?

What matters is not that you wouldn't go to PNG but that many people wouldn't do so for the very same reasons.

Correct. Similarly, a lot of people don't go into FOSS for the same reasons that most women don't.

But if one portion of the population freely went to PNG without any concerns while another portion, which corresponds to a different demographic, flatly refused to go, that raises questions of why the former group goes but the latter does not. If there were something like pervasive crime aimed at certain populations (e.g. crimes against homosexuals) that would be perfectly understandable.

There are people who go to PNG and do document Papuan languages. If there weren't, how would I be able to read anything about Papuan languages in the first place? "Without any concerns" is pretty loaded terminology because none of us knows what any of these people we're talking about are thinking (I know what I am thinking, but aside from that). There is pervasive crime aimed at women in particular, but I'm not a woman. There does not seem to be nearly as much crime aimed at non-straight people.

Despite all this, very few people go to PNG. Very few linguists - regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or any other factor you can think of - would pick PNG over the Amazon rainforest, China, India, Mesoamerica, Australia, etc. because unlike PNG, none of these other places have wars so deadly that they are likely to get killed in the crossfire.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:06 pm Because if toxicity without sexism per se itself drove people in general off, you would have just as many men fleeing FOSS as women, but this is not true. So that implies that men are more tolerant of toxicity than women. Of course, if said toxicity included pervasive sexism, that would be a different story, as then it would explain why more women are dissuaded from participating in FOSS than men without leading to that conclusion

Or maybe it just implies that mex are more toxic towards women than other men. As someone mentioned earlier, this is related to the concept of the "fake geek girl". Men perceive programming spaces as men-only, so women in that space are to be treated with suspicion - which manifests as increased toxicity.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:29 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:06 pmBecause if toxicity without sexism per se itself drove people in general off, you would have just as many men fleeing FOSS as women, but this is not true.

It's not? How many men go into FOSS as opposed to how many go into developing commercial software?

I haven't seen statistics on this. A big thing to remember that dissuades people from entering FOSS is simply having to work very long hours in their day jobs such that they don't have time to work on FOSS even if they wanted to. For a long time I didn't work on FOSS because I simply couldn't think of anything I actually wanted to work on or wanted to contribute to (largely due to underlying depression).

(At the same time, you have companies pushing people into developing FOSS even if they don't want to by using people's GitHub repositories in lieu of a more formal portfolio when doing hiring, a practice I have seen criticized because people's GitHub repositories are not necessarily a good reflection of their skills - often people's most popular works aren't the ones they feel best reflect their capabilities, and oftentimes people use GitHub essentially as backup storage not meant for public consumption.)

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:29 pm

Of course, if said toxicity included pervasive sexism, that would be a different story, as then it would explain why more women are dissuaded from participating in FOSS than men without leading to that conclusion

What is "pervasive" sexism, and how is it different from the sexism everyone in this discussion has been telling you there is in FOSS?

Sexism above the general baseline for society in general. Sexism at the point that only 3% of the people involved are women. I have seen people here state that there is sexism in FOSS, which there no doubt is because there is sexism in all of society, but the question is whether it has such a substantial impact that FOSS in particular is nearly all-male while other parts of society, which also have plenty of sexism of their own, are not. (Take acting for instance; it has had very major problems with sexual harassment and the infamous "casting couch", yet it is not all-male at all, unlike FOSS.)

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:29 pm

What matters is not that you wouldn't go to PNG but that many people wouldn't do so for the very same reasons.

Correct. Similarly, a lot of people don't go into FOSS for the same reasons that most women don't.

But if one portion of the population freely went to PNG without any concerns while another portion, which corresponds to a different demographic, flatly refused to go, that raises questions of why the former group goes but the latter does not. If there were something like pervasive crime aimed at certain populations (e.g. crimes against homosexuals) that would be perfectly understandable.

There are people who go to PNG and do document Papuan languages. If there weren't, how would I be able to read anything about Papuan languages in the first place? "Without any concerns" is pretty loaded terminology because none of us knows what any of these people we're talking about are thinking (I know what I am thinking, but aside from that). There is pervasive crime aimed at women in particular, but I'm not a woman. There does not seem to be nearly as much crime aimed at non-straight people.

Despite all this, very few people go to PNG. Very few linguists - regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexuality, or any other factor you can think of - would pick PNG over the Amazon rainforest, China, India, Mesoamerica, Australia, etc. because unlike PNG, none of these other places have wars so deadly that they are likely to get killed in the crossfire.

So basically it makes perfect sense if one chooses somewhere else to do fieldwork, for these very reasons, and for of those who do go there, it would make perfect sense if they were predominantly male, for the very reasons you give.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:44 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:06 pm Because if toxicity without sexism per se itself drove people in general off, you would have just as many men fleeing FOSS as women, but this is not true. So that implies that men are more tolerant of toxicity than women. Of course, if said toxicity included pervasive sexism, that would be a different story, as then it would explain why more women are dissuaded from participating in FOSS than men without leading to that conclusion

Or maybe it just implies that mex are more toxic towards women than other men. As someone mentioned earlier, this is related to the concept of the "fake geek girl". Men perceive programming spaces as men-only, so women in that space are to be treated with suspicion - which manifests as increased toxicity.

One thing to note is the disparity between female programmers versus female management. I have worked under many women over the years, but have had very few female programmers as coworkers (and the one I can specifically think of was from India, where apparently CS is much more popular amongst women than it is here in the US) - almost all of my female non-management coworkers have worked in areas such as testing, support, technical writing, and like.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:48 pm Aside from childcare, what I had seen was it being said that women spend more time doing eldercare as well. However, I don't foresee these as being substantial enough to explain the absolutely tiny proportion of women in FOSS.

Childcare and eldercare are hardly the only societal expectations placed on women's time. When we are in relationships with men, we are often expected to take on the bulk of housework/emotional labor (cooking, cleaning, decorating, making appointments on behalf of our partner, remembering and buying gifts/cards/etc. on our partner's behalf, maintaining social relationships for both our partner and ourselves, shopping for the household, doing the majority of work to prepare for and host social events, etc.). Even women who aren't in relationships (or are relationships that don't involve men) are often expected to be more sociable, host more events, maintain a higher standard of cleanliness and diet, etc. than single men. (think about the "bachelor" stereotype where a single man lives in squalor, eating basically nothing but greasy takeout--then consider how there isn't a similar stereotype about single women)

So, yes. On average, even setting aside childcare and eldercare (which I'm not sure why you're so insistent on doing--are you implying women with children or elderly parents can't also have technical interests and skills?), women have more time-consuming societal expectations placed on them than are placed on men.