Zompist Bboard Again

it's my turn to slip away...
I'm too present here,
even if it's just to clarify certain points I said,
it's neither to convince nor to contradict...
(politics is an inexhaustible subject for a Frenchman...)

i know xman said he'd chill a bit, but like, for the record

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 4:27 pmThis is typically left-wing hypocrisy, the rightwing assumes Christian history,
but Christians, and Jews, and Muslims, have for the most part internalized this "obligation" of discretion...
even if it is easier for Christians, many of whom have lost all religion...

I'm not up to date on my french sociological publications but I'm pretty sure that, if I google, I'll find that overpolicing in France, just like in the rest of the world, disproportionately affects ethnic minorities.
...
ostie de tabarnac, first google result: human rights watch suing the french police for being racist. surprised pikachu emoji. fifth google result, high french court finds police racially profile. bottom of first page of google the UN tells france to have its police stop being racist. setting the police on them does affect nonwhite people more negatively. don't set police on innocent senegalese or whatever, they're people too you know, and most of them aren't doing nothing wrong.

in accordance with previous customs,
there are no official ethnic statistics in France...

the recent import as political leverage for the leftwing of rhetoric about minorities as weapons against the right,
by driving up the extreme right, and at the risk of dynamiting the whole system (which is in fact LFI's revolutionary project...),
not to mention foreign interference of ideologies,
means that the networks are multiplying this absurd doublethink rhetoric...

There's no denying the importance of criminality, and therefore violence on the latest arrivals...
but not because of their origin, but because of their social category...

the leftwing has abandoned its support for french workers,
and fight no more against immigration asked by capitalist rightwing
as a source of sub-proletariat for the bosses and lower wages,

but seek voters for their naturalization on the fly,
even ally itself with Islamism (in struggle against the puppet rulers of globalized capitalism in their countries of origin)...
in so doing, it runs the risk of being overtaken by an ideology far younger and more violent than itself...

which pushes the latest arrivals into a double bind :
between adopting the customs of the country of arrival,
and maintaining the customs of the countries of origin while fighting against their former rulers represented by their new hosts...

the common sense of the french people,
who can see the slide of their national universalist customs towards racism as a principle, or even reverse racism,
and don't know where to turn, vote for the worst, for want of anything better...

Torco wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:33 pm ostie de tabarnac, first google result: human rights watch suing the french police for being racist. surprised pikachu emoji. fifth google result, high french court finds police racially profile. bottom of first page of google the UN tells france to have its police stop being racist. setting the police on them does affect nonwhite people more negatively. don't set police on innocent senegalese or whatever, they're people too you know, and most of them aren't doing nothing wrong.

The swearwords are Canadian, not European French, but aside from that you're right. Racism in our police forces is present and well attested. Though nothing's ever simple; it's also one of the few institutions that consistently hires minorities.

One linguistic note -- I've used 'minorities' here for convenience, because I'm writing in English for the benefit of international readers. But it's not a terribly useful concept in French politics. What I mean is that you can talk about, say, the Hispanic vote in US politics. Nobody here is talking or looking at the Arab vote or the Muslim vote. Publically, I mean. I'm sure politicians look at that sort of thing with attention, but they don't talk about it. Or they use code words like 'vote des banlieues' which probably doesn't mean much when it comes down to it.

Well, anyway, still no government. Well, no new government; the Attal government stays in place until... well, nobody knows.
What we do have is a lot of drama.
A lot of people are worried and anxious. Personally, I don't mind. French politics loves a strong charismatic man (emphasis on man, because testosterone poisoning is always the key factor) but I think a few weeks without a Grand Supreme Leader is a welcome break.
The major political crisis in 2016/2017 led to a pretty uninspiring situation. Maybe this time more interesting figures will emerge.

@x: mmokay, and agreed on fuck neoliberal progs, no class analysis leads to lgbt being used to justify genocide as in nazi israel, but what does that have to do with setting the coppers on people whose only crime is wearing a funny scarf on their head?

@Ares got that curse from Yiuel back in the day, so I guess that makes sense. Still, police being both very racist and full of dispreferred races is not unique to france: I understand that's the case in the US, and it certainly is here.

Torco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:16 am @Ares got that curse from Yiuel back in the day, so I guess that makes sense. Still, police being both very racist and full of dispreferred races is not unique to france: I understand that's the case in the US, and it certainly is here.

Police here in the US are known for including many Black people who are racist against Black people.

Torco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:16 am nazi israel

Off-topic, but could we perhaps avoid this kind of rhetoric, please?

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:09 am

Torco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 9:16 am nazi israel

Off-topic, but could we perhaps avoid this kind of rhetoric, please?

Seconded.

race-inclusive racism for the win¿

man, they really could light up the furnaces and remain the beacon of light and freedom, huh? okay, sure. just israel then.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 amwhich is in fact LFI's revolutionary project...),

I am a member of LFI. We do not want a revolution. Just a fairer society for people and other living beings.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 am not to mention foreign interference of ideologies,

Like Putin actively supporting RN?

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 am There's no denying the importance of criminality, and therefore violence on the latest arrivals...
but not because of their origin, but because of their social category...

If it's about the social category, it's not about immigration really then, is it? French people of four French grandparents have never hurt anyone? How about improving things for those in the social category instead of stigmatising them?

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 am the leftwing has abandoned its support for french workers,

Read the programme of the NFP. It contains mention of supporting rights of 'salariés': https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nouvea ... 1719575111

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 am and fight no more against immigration asked by capitalist rightwing
as a source of sub-proletariat for the bosses and lower wages,

The capitalist right-wing, like BFM and CNEWS, support distracting the working class with people moving country.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 am even ally itself with Islamism (in struggle against the puppet rulers of globalized capitalism in their countries of origin)...

No. Just no. To the rest as well.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:28 amNobody here is talking or looking at the Arab vote or the Muslim vote. Publically, I mean. I'm sure politicians look at that sort of thing with attention, but they don't talk about it. Or they use code words like 'vote des banlieues' which probably doesn't mean much when it comes down to it.

Marine Le Pen has said "when people say 'Long Live Mélenchon, it's always the Arabs".

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:28 am Well, anyway, still no government. Well, no new government; the Attal government stays in place until... well, nobody knows.
What we do have is a lot of drama.
A lot of people are worried and anxious. Personally, I don't mind. French politics loves a strong charismatic man (emphasis on man, because testosterone poisoning is always the key factor) but I think a few weeks without a Grand Supreme Leader is a welcome break.
The major political crisis in 2016/2017 led to a pretty uninspiring situation. Maybe this time more interesting figures will emerge.

The head of the Réunion Region, Huguette Bello, has been suggested by the Communist Party for Prime Minister. I met her the other day while campaigning for Frédéric Maillot.

And nobody but Ciotti wants to ally with RN, the right has decided go into opposition and people want a change. So that just leaves the left (maybe with a few centrists coming back left) to form a minority government. I hope they'll be pragmatic enough, given the very relative majority.

Torco wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:54 am okay, sure. just israel then.

Thank you.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 10:59 am I am a member of LFI.

of which trend...

Like Putin actively supporting RN?

our enemies (as well as our "friends") rejoice in the mess we're in...

If it's about the social category, it's not about immigration really then, is it? French people of four French grandparents have never hurt anyone? How about improving things for those in the social category instead of stigmatising them?

Emphasizing differences, favoring ethnic behavior, importing conflicts from the countries of origin: that's stigmatizing the latest arrivals by preventing them from integrating, which is the will of the nation...

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:09 am and fight no more against immigration asked by capitalist rightwing
as a source of sub-proletariat for the bosses and lower wages,

The capitalist right-wing, like BFM and CNEWS, support distracting the working class with people moving country.

no the one Marx spoke about...

while campaigning for Frédéric Maillot.

oh I saw his speeches in Creole, I didn't understand everything, fun...

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:32 pm

If it's about the social category, it's not about immigration really then, is it? French people of four French grandparents have never hurt anyone? How about improving things for those in the social category instead of stigmatising them?

Emphasizing differences, favoring ethnic behavior, importing conflicts from the countries of origin: that's stigmatizing the latest arrivals by preventing them from integrating, which is the will of the nation...

Suuure... French police treating minorities like shit is the minorities' fault for supposedly failing to integrate...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:35 pm Suuure... French police treating minorities like shit is the minorities' fault for supposedly failing to integrate...

You misread me,

the fault lies not with the unfortunate people,
who arrived in France dispossessed by decolonization and by globalization,

but with those who bring them here and leave them in the hands of delinquents or Islamists,
and those who encourage them to oppose those who welcome them,

nor to the forces of law and order, who find it hard to do their job in these conditions...

I'm afraid you've fallen under 21th century fashy propaganda. the burgeoisie does not in fact import people from elsewhere to work for free or cheap.... okay, they do, it's called human trafficking and slavery and it happens a lot in some countries. but the vast majority of migriation is just people who want to mirate, who want to escape some situation in their home country, or who would like to be paid more than a buck per whole day of work, thank you very fucking much. of course there's a lot of people in both the legal and illegal migration industries, cause migrating is hard, but pretending migrants are somehow brought in against their will and for the benefit of bougies is silly. what some ruling class do -the sane ones- is allow and support some migration, which is what fash tend to mean when they say "the left wing brought them" or whatever. and yeah, everyone's against freedom of movement now for some reason, but can you imagine france without migration? it would absolutely collapse. hell, even here we would absolutely collapse without migration. the us economy, the french economy, the german economy, the british economy, they all depend on migration to function. and even without the economic argument, why, exactly, ethically that is, should anyone believe that people should be kept in misery simply because of where they were born again? so french poors who out-earn 95% of the world instead of 99% of it can enjoy slightly better job stability or something? the whole anti-immigration thing is so dumb.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:49 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:35 pm Suuure... French police treating minorities like shit is the minorities' fault for supposedly failing to integrate...

You misread me,

the fault lies not with the unfortunate people,
who arrived in France dispossessed by decolonization and by globalization,

but with those who bring them here and leave them in the hands of delinquents or Islamists,
and those who encourage them to oppose those who welcome them,

nor to the forces of law and order, who find it hard to do their job in these conditions...

While there is human trafficking, the matter is that people want to migrate of their own accord (not because of any replacement conspiracy by the "elites"), because standards of living are absolute shit where they come from, and even if they are in the bottom tier of where they migrate to, they still are better off that way compared to where they came from.

When you refer to "delinquents" or "Islamists", the matter is that they are being treated like shit by people like the police and right-wing scum (even though they are still better off than they were before), which is what results in alienation. Maybe you would get fewer Islamists if you treated migrants like human beings.

xxx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:49 pm You misread me,

the fault lies not with the unfortunate people,
who arrived in France dispossessed by decolonization and by globalization,

but with those who bring them here and leave them in the hands of delinquents or Islamists,
and those who encourage them to oppose those who welcome them,

nor to the forces of law and order, who find it hard to do their job in these conditions...

If migrant workers worry you, some countries serve as a more efficient production nexus for certain industries. If you think the distribution of capital is making work inefficient, agitate to abolish capitalism. If you don't like refugees fleeing war-torn regions, that's xenophobia. You should create non-Islamist alternatives for them, not send them back into a war zone.

Crucially, the Far Right only pushes for cultural exclusion, never any materialist solution to a problem. They lift complaints from Marx, and then propose solutions that are in no way related to a Marx-oriented analysis. In fact, they abolish Marxism wherever they come to power. In India, their favorite bugbear is the "Marxist anti-national", whatever that means.

Currently, their plan seems to involve creating a new "Holy Alliance": White Nationalism in Europe, Islamism in the Arab World, Hindutva in India, etc. The Far Right abolishes science in general and replaces it with inspirational bullshit drawn from tradition. In India, they deny that Indo-European languages (and possibly humans) originated outside India, try to revive mythical gadgets mentioned in Hindu scriptures with "Vedic science", etc. This is how they oppose tradition to civilization itself. If they win for good, it will mean a new dark age.

Torco wrote:I'm afraid you've fallen under 21th century fashy propaganda. the burgeoisie does not in fact import people from elsewhere to work for free or cheap....

um, no, that's pure Marxist theory...

Travis B wrote:While there is human trafficking, the matter is that people want to migrate of their own accord (not because of any replacement conspiracy by the "elites"),

no one migrates voluntarily and where do these conditions come from if not from decolonization and globalization, and who is behind...
migration is only the result of the profit we get from it...
it is only in that economies need migration, but it is no longer a question of national economy, it is a question of globalization,

nations only have to bear the consequences, unemployment, immigration, social disintegration,

politicians no longer have the hand, they have fun with rattles without effect on the causes,
the left boasts of universalist ethics but it participates in the deviation of its own ideal by favoring what it condemns,
the reactionary right cowers on these universal values ​​and only reflects the bad side of them,
the ecologists who should be autarkic right-wing reactionaries are globalist leftists...

rotting bones wrote:Currently, their plan seems to involve creating a new "Holy Alliance": White Nationalism in Europe, Islamism in the Arab World, Hindutva in India...
abolishes science in general and replaces it with inspirational bullshit drawn from tradition...

the return to the golden age of each society, before globalization, the return to traditional societies, the end of ecological risk,
what a utopia...
the problem is that each branch will believe itself to be universal and will try to invade and reduce the other,
and here we are again riding on the same powder keg...

xxx wrote:politicians no longer have the hand they have fun with rattles without effect on the causes,

shit, which got me back on these sterile political debates...

i½³€x®±Ui¿³RÁ
(our brain having to give new words...)
let's conlang again...

xxx wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 12:50 am the return to the golden age of each society, before globalization, the return to traditional societies, the end of ecological risk,
what a utopia...
the problem is that each branch will believe itself to be universal and will try to invade and reduce the other,
and here we are again riding on the same powder keg...

To the extent that Europeans were racist, Arabs were fanatical and Indians were superstitious, these were the worst qualities of these societies. At the height of their power, Europe was never white, the Caliphate was indifferent to religion and India never achieved any ideological unity. That's how these societies managed to achieve whatever meagre prosperity they cobbled together. There was no utopia.