Zompist Bboard Again

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:56 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:54 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:44 pm FWIW, I also frequently have the STRUT vowel in went, making it an occasional homophone for want.

So you sometimes pronounce want with STRUT?

Is this a trick question? I always pronounce it that way. Using a rounded vowel sounds positively Bri'ish to me.

So your want is something like [wʌnt̚~wʌnʔ]? Mine is definitely my merged lot-cloth-father-bother vowel.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:54 pm Mine is definitely my merged lot-cloth-father-bother vowel.

Same for me: [wɑnt], or in quick speech, [w̃ɑ̃ʔ].

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:54 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:56 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:54 pm So you sometimes pronounce want with STRUT?

Is this a trick question? I always pronounce it that way. Using a rounded vowel sounds positively Bri'ish to me.

So your want is something like [wʌnt̚~wʌnʔ]? Mine is definitely my merged lot-cloth-father-bother vowel.

Yeah, before today I did not know that anyone had STRUT for want, but from perusing the Interwebs a bit apparently this is not an uncommon pronunciation of want in NAE.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:56 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:54 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:44 pm FWIW, I also frequently have the STRUT vowel in went, making it an occasional homophone for want.

So you sometimes pronounce want with STRUT?

Is this a trick question? I always pronounce it that way. Using a rounded vowel sounds positively Bri'ish to me.

Using a rounded vowel in 'want' seems 'speaking like a RP dictionary' to my Scottish ears.

Pronouncing want with a rounded open-mid vowel, as in RP, would seem strange to me, but that is because my THOUGHT Is a rounded open back vowel. Using STRUT would also feel strange to me, since my STRUT is an unrounded open-mid back vowel (and while many other varieties have a central vowel for STRUT, using that would also feel strange to me, since it would feel like I was trying to use DRESS, which for me is a front-central to central vowel).

For me, want has the [ɔ] vowel (as far as I can tell) and I certainly do not speak with an RP accent.

I have DRESS in twenty and LOT ([ɔ] or thereabouts) in want. (I'm not aware of the latter ever having THOUGHT in BrE, except potentially in Scottish accents with the LOT/THOUGHT merger.)

People used to comment on John Major pronouncing want with STRUT (e.g. this WordReference thread).. He has a mild London accent.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:30 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:08 am I have TRAP (phonetically [a]) in both the first and third syllables of kalamata and in the first syllable of calamari but PALM/START in the third syllable of calamari.

If your trap vowel is [a], what is your palm vowel? Still [ɑː]?

More or less, yes. There's nothing particularly unusual about [a] in TRAP in BrE.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm I have DRESS in twenty and LOT ([ɔ] or thereabouts) in want. (I'm not aware of the latter ever having THOUGHT in BrE, except potentially in Scottish accents with the LOT/THOUGHT merger.)

I don't know how want [wɒ̃ʔ] ended up with THOUGHT here; it's not a CLOTH vowel, clearly (CLOTH is identical to THOUGHT here), but the expected pronunciation were it descended from a variety with LOT would be *[wãʔ], like swan [swã(ː)n].

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:30 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:08 am I have TRAP (phonetically [a]) in both the first and third syllables of kalamata and in the first syllable of calamari but PALM/START in the third syllable of calamari.

If your trap vowel is [a], what is your palm vowel? Still [ɑː]?

More or less, yes. There's nothing particularly unusual about [a] in TRAP in BrE.

I wonder why I hear [a] for TRAP as TRAP in, say, British TV, when the very same phone is PALM for me, and I hear it as such when pronounced by other Americans, when not adjacent to /r w h kw gw/...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:29 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm I have DRESS in twenty and LOT ([ɔ] or thereabouts) in want. (I'm not aware of the latter ever having THOUGHT in BrE, except potentially in Scottish accents with the LOT/THOUGHT merger.)

I don't know how want [wɒ̃ʔ] ended up with THOUGHT here; it's not a CLOTH vowel, clearly (CLOTH is identical to THOUGHT here), but the expected pronunciation were it descended from a variety with LOT would be *[wãʔ], like swan [swã(ː)n].

Various thoughts:
- The LOT/CLOTH split isn't entirely regular; there are quite a few examples of unexpected THOUGHT vowels turning up in AmE varieties. (Doesn't chocolate sometimes get it?)
- /w/ can do funny things to following vowels (as already demonstrated by want not having TRAP).
- want in particular seems to have considerable variation in its vowel, as demonstrated by this discussion.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:30 am
If your trap vowel is [a], what is your palm vowel? Still [ɑː]?

More or less, yes. There's nothing particularly unusual about [a] in TRAP in BrE.

I wonder why I hear [a] for TRAP as TRAP in, say, British TV, when the very same phone is PALM for me, and I hear it as such when pronounced by other Americans, when not adjacent to /r w h kw gw/...

- Ears adjust to the accent, even if I do sometimes struggle with what New Zealanders do to DRISSDRESS.
- Some BrE speakers do have a more [æ]-type vowel, and these are likely over-represented in what you're hearing. (Older, posher, south-eastern.) See Geoff Lindsey's blog for a discussion of this and other transcriptions issues.
- Even among those for whom [a] is a better transcription, vowels are more like points in a continuum, and our TRAP [a] is probably fronter than your LOT/PALM [a]. (Though I have heard AmE speakers, generally from the Inland North, where I don't think this is true: their LOT/PALM sounds basically identical to or slightly fronter than my TRAP.)

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:16 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:23 pm

More or less, yes. There's nothing particularly unusual about [a] in TRAP in BrE.

I wonder why I hear [a] for TRAP as TRAP in, say, British TV, when the very same phone is PALM for me, and I hear it as such when pronounced by other Americans, when not adjacent to /r w h kw gw/...

- Ears adjust to the accent, even if I do sometimes struggle with what New Zealanders do to DRISSDRESS.

Yeah, this. One time I was watching TV with my brother. It was an Australian show and you pretty much only hear Australian accents in the ads too. I was looking down at a book and suddenly someone said "I was sharked!" Huh? I looked up. My brother had changed the channel. It was an American saying she was shocked. I don't hear Americans talking about getting "sharked" whenever they say "shocked" because generally the context of the accent is there, but in such an abrupt switch, a single sentence in isolation, my brain assumed it was still an Australian accent and therefore heard it as "sharked".

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:16 pm - Some BrE speakers do have a more [æ]-type vowel, and these are likely over-represented in what you're hearing. (Older, posher, south-eastern.) See Geoff Lindsey's blog for a discussion of this and other transcriptions issues.

To my NAE ears, Italian pasta alongside SSBE bastion linked from there both sounded like they had something like a very low /æ/ or a very front /ɑː/. (My own /æ/ is much higher and my /ɑː/ is more central.) And Italian [p] sounded like a very clear /b/ to me.

pince-nez (as an English word).

I am feuding with my neighbours over this one.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:39 am pince-nez (as an English word).

I am feuding with my neighbours over this one.

I've neither heard nor seen that word - I'd want to pronounce it /pænsˈneɪ/ but apparently in English you add a /z/ to the end of that.

Illinois

I have my entire life pronounced it one way, but then just recently learned that the "standard" pronunciation is phonemically different from it (not just different with regard to my own realization) and even my mother, who grew up in Kenosha, pronounces it that way.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:51 am Illinois

[ˌɪ.lə'nɔɪ̯]

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:39 am pince-nez (as an English word).

I've never said this word aloud, nor had I before now ever looked up how to say it. I'd been giving it an English reading pronunciation of [pʰɪ̃n(t)s nɛz̺] when it appeared in something I was reading (I did know what it was, so I must've looked up a definition at least once), but now that I look it up, [pʰæ̃n(t)s neɪ̯] makes a great deal more sense.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:51 am Illinois

[ˌɪɫəˈnɔɪ]. (I may occasionally use a "light" /l/ but I think it's generally velarised.)

I have /ˌɛlɪˈnɔɪ/*, which I realize as [ˌɜːɤ̯ɘ̃ːˈnɔːɪ]. I really thought /ˌɛlɪˈnɔɪ/ was how everyone pronounced it.

* From now on I won't be representing the weak vowel merger, as I realized my weak vowel merger is not complete.

In most cases i have *f for *θ so *think or *thin is [fɪŋk] and [fɪn] as well as ether as [i:fər]
But *ð becomes *d word initially and *v elsewhere so *the [də] and *this [dɪs] but *with [wɪv]

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:04 am In most cases i have *f for *θ so *think or *thin is [fɪŋk] and [fɪn] as well as ether as [i:fər]
But *ð becomes *d word initially and *v elsewhere so *the [də] and *this [dɪs] but *with [wɪv]

I presume you're British?

Those do seem quite common changes with young British speakers.