Zompist Bboard Again

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:37 am our elected representatives share among themselves :
- morality without common sense, this is dogmatism,
- common sense without morality, this is cynicism,
- and neither morality nor common sense, they are politicians...
we're still waiting for the one who would still have morality and common sense after being elected,
but could he form a government with all the others......

Being a decent person isn't enough, I'm afraid. Unpopular opinion: former president Hollande was a decent and competent man. What he lacked was a clear idea of where to go and where to lead the country. Despite all his good intentions and plenty of decent measures, his platform was too vague and as for economics, he was almost completely wrong.

Another unpopular opinion: when it comes to economics, the NFP platform isn't ambitious enough, and neither is LFI. (In fact, surprisingly, the PS platform can be more interesting in times.)
I think it's pretty funny to see LFI fuming with revolutionary rhetoric to defend lukewarm social democracy.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:24 pm

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:16 am I disagree. Many societes, such as Mbuti, have deliberately ecologically conscious methods. The RN is not pro-premodern, except perhaps on a (low) intellectual level. Notably, the RN were the first political party in France to have a website. The RN are actually hypermodern in some ways, often the worst ones.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 11:33 am PS the distinction between 'modern' and 'premodern' is sufficiently nuanced, not taking into account the details of reality as there are significant differences between industrial, feudal, pastoral, nomadic hunter-gatherers etc

1. xxx never mentioned hunter gatherers.
2. Hunting and gathering doesn't scale. How would billions forage in the jungle?
3. For hunter gatherers, ecology is like cleaning the neighborhood. This is something humans do naturally when they're not stressed. It doesn't scale to industrial society.

I'm suspicious of culture for a number of reasons. Take Zizek, for example. Marxism has a clear explanation for why the abolition of slavery was possible with modern industry. But because of his training in cultural analysis, Zizek is now trying to analyze the biblical roots of the Western tradition that allowed it to happen.

I have no objections to those points but my main point is that the RN is not pro-premodern, except that they want to reduce the place of universities. Their anti-ecologicalism is not pro-premodern but anti-left.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:32 am

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:37 am our elected representatives share among themselves :
- morality without common sense, this is dogmatism,
- common sense without morality, this is cynicism,
- and neither morality nor common sense, they are politicians...
we're still waiting for the one who would still have morality and common sense after being elected,
but could he form a government with all the others......

Being a decent person isn't enough, I'm afraid. Unpopular opinion: former president Hollande was a decent and competent man. What he lacked was a clear idea of where to go and where to lead the country. Despite all his good intentions and plenty of decent measures, his platform was too vague and as for economics, he was almost completely wrong.

Another unpopular opinion: when it comes to economics, the NFP platform isn't ambitious enough, and neither is LFI. (In fact, surprisingly, the PS platform can be more interesting in times.)
I think it's pretty funny to see LFI fuming with revolutionary rhetoric to defend lukewarm social democracy.

I agree. But, despite this, we shall still have go for someone to the right of our lukewarm social democracy because many object to the rhetoric without looking at what it means.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:23 pm I was referring to xxx. He's not a leftist. Despite all the references to Marx, he wants to revive the French Colonial Empire.

No,
I would have liked each civilization
to have been able to fully develop what it had to offer,
rather than adopting ours,
or worse, the steamroller of globalization...
_________________________________________
m´d²z°³Wd²‚ÁݹkÁm´¿kÁÄWk¿Rl¿

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:21 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:23 pm I was referring to xxx. He's not a leftist. Despite all the references to Marx, he wants to revive the French Colonial Empire.

No,
I would have liked each civilization
to have been able to fully develop what it had to offer,
rather than adopting ours,
or worse, the steamroller of globalization...

That is the position of some White separatists who attempt to legitimize White separatism by saying that Black, Arab, Indian, Chinese, etc. people ought to also have their own civilizations separate from White people.

no, it's the position of a conworlder/conlanger,
who appreciates cultural extremism,
to the point of inventing new ones,
disappointed by the banality that has globalized our world...
__________________________________________________________
k¿‚Áz°³oµ¹TÃm²Ä±

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:24 pm

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:21 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:23 pm I was referring to xxx. He's not a leftist. Despite all the references to Marx, he wants to revive the French Colonial Empire.

No,
I would have liked each civilization
to have been able to fully develop what it had to offer,
rather than adopting ours,
or worse, the steamroller of globalization...

That is the position of some White separatists who attempt to legitimize White separatism by saying that Black, Arab, Indian, Chinese, etc. people ought to also have their own civilizations separate from White people.

I've just accepted that he types that way in an effort to provide a thin veil to his bigotry.

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:30 pm no, it's the position of a conworlder/conlanger,
who appreciates cultural extremism,

extremism??

disappointed by the banality that has globalized our world...

{emphasis mine, part of my reading method)

you'd have prefered a different banality?

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:37 amour elected representatives share among themselves :
- morality without common sense, this is dogmatism,
- common sense without morality, this is cynicism,
- and neither morality nor common sense, they are politicians...

but how can they have "morality without common sense" OR "common sense without morality", when you say they have neither one?

keenir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:39 pm but how can they have "morality without common sense" OR "common sense without morality", when you say they have neither one?

masako wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:08 pm I've just accepted that he types that way in an effort to provide a thin veil to his bigotry.

things are never white or black, even under their veil...

___________________________________
n³¶7³ÂÅX1¸SѸ

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:03 am I agree. But, despite this, we shall still have go for someone to the right of our lukewarm social democracy because many object to the rhetoric without looking at what it means.

LFI's rhetoric and general divisiveness on the left are I think pretty off-putting. LFI's positions on international policy are unclear and that tends to scare people off.
There's been a lot of talk about who would be a left-wing prime minister both before and after the elections. For those following from abroad, NFP still hasn't decided. Before the elections, this opened the flank to attack; NFP opponents and the media could scare voters with Mélenchon PM. Now that the elections have passed, it feels disappointing and ridiculous.

Not that other left-wing parties are any better. Many people in the PS have an interesting line; others are stuck in 2012 and are pushing something pretty close to Macron behind the scenes. I don't know what the problem is with EELV (ie, the Greens) but I think they're hindered by infighting; also some of their prominent figures just... aren't very good at convincing people.

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 2:19 am

keenir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:39 pm but how can they have "morality without common sense" OR "common sense without morality", when you say they have neither one?

masako wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:08 pm I've just accepted that he types that way in an effort to provide a thin veil to his bigotry.

things are never white or black, even under their veil...

I think thats a confession. and an admission of not knowing what words mean.

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 4:52 am I think thats a confession. and an admission of not knowing what words mean.

I often feel like you're looking at my finger when I'm pointing at the moon...

_______________________________________________________________
mÀ7±WdSqlÀq±7ÆѸS„º

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 5:09 am

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 4:52 am I think thats a confession. and an admission of not knowing what words mean.

I often feel like you're looking at my finger when I'm pointing at the moon...

_______________________________________________________________
mÀ7±WdSqlÀq±7ÆѸS„º

Thing is, you're probably being deliberatively obtuse. You make sure that none of your statements is ever particularly clear, so that, when people have the impression that they disagree with you, they're never really sure what to say in response to you, because they're never really sure what you said in the first place.

it's true that I'm reluctant to use my finger to point at the moon...
_______________________________________________________
Ѹ7ƄºSq³±lÀSÄqlÀ

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 2:19 am

keenir wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:39 pm but how can they have "morality without common sense" OR "common sense without morality", when you say they have neither one?

masako wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:08 pm I've just accepted that he types that way in an effort to provide a thin veil to his bigotry.

things are never white or black, even under their veil...

That's not remotely a response to either keenir or me...and is as profound as a turtle fart. You clearly think you're some sort of sage when in reality you've only ever been able to coherently express bigotry and stupendous absurdity. There is obviously no point to this response as you'll no doubt ignore its intent and/or meaning, but you have the social awareness of a swamprat and should spend several years contemplating how to be a better human. But, I know you won't because you have some weird notion that everyone else has to be wrong, and that you have some magical insight to all things. You don't...you simply do not.

Your banality is like sandpaper on the brain.

it is not even useful to become insulting
so as not to hear what you do not want,
I do not particularly wish to disabuse you,
I am only adding nuances
which may be superfluous for you...
___________________________________
mÀl±æ±ÅlÀl±´lÂÁYlÀl±q±ÅWmÀ

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 7:31 am it is not even useful to become insulting

This is lost on many people here. Their discussions in the other subfora are generally constructive, but Ephemera really can be quite toxic. Folks frothing at the mouth, insulting one another: it is tolerated because [insert wrong opinion].

masako wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 6:12 am That's not remotely a response to either keenir or me...and is as profound as a turtle fart. You clearly think you're some sort of sage when in reality you've only ever been able to coherently express bigotry and stupendous absurdity. There is obviously no point to this response as you'll no doubt ignore its intent and/or meaning, but you have the social awareness of a swamprat and should spend several years contemplating how to be a better human. But, I know you won't because you have some weird notion that everyone else has to be wrong, and that you have some magical insight to all things. You don't...you simply do not.

Your banality is like sandpaper on the brain.

I find xxx’s mode of writing as annoying as everyone else does, but this strikes me as crossing the line into being a personal attack.

I do not feel insulted,
reporting these words as such
is only intended to promote temperance
(and speaking in tongue)...
_____________________________________
lÀæ³±ÅlÂæ±l³±lÀ긱´SlÂlÂUÄlÀ

Ok, folks.

I feel this is yet another instance of far right trolling.
I'm beginning to be familiar with that, either online or in real life. In fact, this is how political debate is done now, even political campaigns.

Suddenly the topics shifts to discussing how acceptable bigotry is. Decent people get angry, both at the bigotry (which is offensive) and at the vague and shifting nature of the far right argument, and then suddenly they're the insulting, crazy and incoherent one. That's probably the goal of the whole maneuver.

I'm not interested in playing that game; in fact I don't even want to be in a place where that game is played, so I guess I'll be taking a bit of a break.