Zompist Bboard Again

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:56 pm Those do seem quite common changes with young British speakers.

What, like under 90?

The /θ/~/f/ merger is quite widespread, though it used to be thought of as Cockney. So is the merger of post-vocalic /ð/ and /v/. I had them when young - possibly due to London overspill, though otherwise my speech was mostly lower middle class RP. However, to my hearing, the merger of word-initial /ð/ and /d/ is quite rare.

Just imagine: it's the year 2122, and these θ > f and ð > d/v sound changes have become such a standard staple of pronunciation in England, especially in London, that Americans insist in listening to their Shakespeare with them, because otherwise it doesn't sound "authentic".

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:23 pm Just imagine: it's the year 2122, and these θ > f and ð > d/v sound changes have become such a standard staple of pronunciation in England, especially in London, that Americans insist in listening to their Shakespeare with them, because otherwise it doesn't sound "authentic".

I can picture this, even though to me at the present these changes still specifically evoke London and environs and not England in general.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:17 am

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:04 am In most cases i have *f for *θ so *think or *thin is [fɪŋk] and [fɪn] as well as ether as [i:fər]
But *ð becomes *d word initially and *v elsewhere so *the [də] and *this [dɪs] but *with [wɪv]

I presume you're British?

Nup australian.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:49 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:17 am

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:04 am In most cases i have *f for *θ so *think or *thin is [fɪŋk] and [fɪn] as well as ether as [i:fər]
But *ð becomes *d word initially and *v elsewhere so *the [də] and *this [dɪs] but *with [wɪv]

I presume you're British?

Nup australian.

Huh, I never realised. I personally don’t have this change, but I’ve noticed it in other young Australians.

Have I been pronouncing cases wrong? I've been saying (mostly in my head because I seldom need to actually speak about noun declensions) things like allative as [ə.ˈlɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] and locative as [loʊ̯.ˈkʰɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] (the same first two syllables as location).

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:53 am Have I been pronouncing cases wrong? I've been saying (mostly in my head because I seldom need to actually speak about noun declensions) things like allative as [ə.ˈlɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] and locative as [loʊ̯.ˈkʰɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] (the same first two syllables as location).

I would expect allative to rime with ablative as in 'case' rather than ablative as in 'tile'. Moreover the -ative is also unstressed in nominative, vocative and accusative. Unstressedness is not possible in dative. I learnt Latin as school.

Something that the one about "Illinois" makes me think of is that there are all these people with [ɔ]--Illin[ɔ]is--but I have [o]--Illin[o]is.

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:35 pm Something that the one about "Illinois" makes me think of is that there are all these people with [ɔ]--Illin[ɔ]is--but I have [o]--Illin[o]is.

In every English variety I have heard of, Illinois ends in a diphthong - [ɔɪ̯] - and I have never heard of it contrasting with a *[oɪ̯], or being pronounced with two vowels in hiatus.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 pm

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:35 pm Something that the one about "Illinois" makes me think of is that there are all these people with [ɔ]--Illin[ɔ]is--but I have [o]--Illin[o]is.

In every English variety I have heard of, Illinois ends in a diphthong - [ɔɪ̯] - and I have never heard of it contrasting with a *[oɪ̯], or being pronounced with two vowels in hiatus.

Personally i have the spelling pronounciation [ɪ.lɪ.nois]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 pm

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:35 pm Something that the one about "Illinois" makes me think of is that there are all these people with [ɔ]--Illin[ɔ]is--but I have [o]--Illin[o]is.

In every English variety I have heard of, Illinois ends in a diphthong - [ɔɪ̯] - and I have never heard of it contrasting with a *[oɪ̯], or being pronounced with two vowels in hiatus.

I am not sure what you mean, but I pronounce it as [ɪ.ɫɪ.noj]--never [ɪ.ɫɪ.nɔɪ], [ɪ.ɫɪ.noɪ], or [ɪ.ɫɪ.nɔj]. That is, unless I'm pronouncing one or more of those for an example.

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:18 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 pm

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:35 pm Something that the one about "Illinois" makes me think of is that there are all these people with [ɔ]--Illin[ɔ]is--but I have [o]--Illin[o]is.

In every English variety I have heard of, Illinois ends in a diphthong - [ɔɪ̯] - and I have never heard of it contrasting with a *[oɪ̯], or being pronounced with two vowels in hiatus.

I am not sure what you mean, but I pronounce it as [ɪ.ɫɪ.noj]--never [ɪ.ɫɪ.nɔɪ], [ɪ.ɫɪ.noɪ], or [ɪ.ɫɪ.nɔj]. That is, unless I'm pronouncing one or more of those for an example.

My point is that normally English is analyzed as having diphthongs here rather than vowel-semivowel pairs, as shown by that one only gets a high front glide before [a]~[ɑ], [ə]~[ʌ]*, and [ɔ] in most English varieties.

* Only varieties with raising of /aɪ/.

Really getting into the weeds of what those diphthongs sound like when I say them, I think the /i/ in /ai ei ɔi/ and the /u/ in /au ou/ would be, in both cases, slightly lowered and more centered, but not so far as to be in lax territory, something like [aï̯ e̞ï̯ ɔï̯ aü̯ ou̯]; note that my [a] is distinct from the palm vowel (I have both the lot-cloth and father-bother mergers), which is [ɑ]. If I had /ai/ > /a/, it would probably produce a new phoneme, and not a spy-spa merger.

A lot of local people seem to do what I mentally call oi-darkening — /ɔi/ becomes something like [ʌʊ̯], or might even merge with /ʌ/ in some speakers (producing a coil-cull merger, which I haven't heard discussed anywhere). Some just have it before /l/, but I've heard others doing it everywhere. Has anybody else noticed something like this?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:10 pm

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:18 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:37 pm In every English variety I have heard of, Illinois ends in a diphthong - [ɔɪ̯] - and I have never heard of it contrasting with a *[oɪ̯], or being pronounced with two vowels in hiatus.

I am not sure what you mean, but I pronounce it as [ɪ.ɫɪ.noj]--never [ɪ.ɫɪ.nɔɪ], [ɪ.ɫɪ.noɪ], or [ɪ.ɫɪ.nɔj]. That is, unless I'm pronouncing one or more of those for an example.

My point is that normally English is analyzed as having diphthongs here rather than vowel-semivowel pairs, as shown by that one only gets a high front glide before [a]~[ɑ], [ə]~[ʌ]*, and [ɔ] in most English varieties.

* Only varieties with raising of /aɪ/.

For me, [oj] is a diphthong.

Something I kind of realized the other day: For me, tool and tulle are not homonyms. Tool has two syllables whereas tulle has one. Is this common? Does anyone else do this?

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:09 pm Something I kind of realized the other day: For me, tool and tulle are not homonyms. Tool has two syllables whereas tulle has one. Is this common? Does anyone else do this?

Given that I've been using a semi-reading-pronunciation /tjuːl/ for "tulle", I also don't pronounce them as homophones. They can both be either monosyllables or disyllables, depending on the context in which they're spoken, though...

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:53 amHave I been pronouncing cases wrong? I've been saying (mostly in my head because I seldom need to actually speak about noun declensions) things like allative as [ə.ˈlɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] and locative as [loʊ̯.ˈkʰɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] (the same first two syllables as location).

Double wrong on locative, it seems. I did have the (correct) initial stress, but according to Wiktionary, it also has LOT: /ˈlɒkətɪv/, where I assumed GOAT, like you. <allative> is /ˈælətɪv/ (I at least had that one correct).


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:35 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:53 amHave I been pronouncing cases wrong? I've been saying (mostly in my head because I seldom need to actually speak about noun declensions) things like allative as [ə.ˈlɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] and locative as [loʊ̯.ˈkʰɛɪ̯.tʰɪv] (the same first two syllables as location).

Double wrong on locative, it seems. I did have the (correct) initial stress, but according to Wiktionary, it also has LOT: /ˈlɒkətɪv/, where I assumed GOAT, like you. <allative> is /ˈælətɪv/ (I at least had that one correct).

It had never occured to me before, but I had watched a YouTube video on Latin noun declensions by an American guy and I was thrown by his pronunciation of the case names, I wasn't sure if this was an American pronunciation thing or if I had gotten it completely wrong, but as someone else pointed out I had been pronouncing things like nominative, accusative, genitive correctly. However, these correct pronunciations still don't sit right with me

How do you pronounce hydrogen? Especially, what is the first vowel in it, and are the first two syllables the same as in hydroelectric or hydroponic or like?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:07 pm How do you pronounce hydrogen? Especially, what is the first vowel in it, and are the first two syllables the same as in hydroelectric or hydroponic or like?

I have [ˈɦɑi̯d͡ʒʷɻʷəd͡ʒən], and as far as I can remember everyone I know has something similar to that. (Which is a fairly big sample, given that I’ve been doing chemistry for some time now.) The first two syllables are precisely the same as those in hydroelectric, hydroponic etc. [EDIT: correction, hydroponic is different in its second syllable.]