Zompist Bboard Again

Èa șeptezila-c̦i, envitir un demanda per un bestã rișièrșalan èo slujebenu națiunalor siènțir delle Basse-Tere și une article di mièin vieila rișièrșan èo Lucsemborgo. Ahor sèie fatigo, mè sèie fișto per mièin trava èo lavoratoro recomensare.
[jæ ʃepteˈzilɛ t͡ʃi ɛnˈvitiɾ un deˈmandɐ peɾ un beˈstɐ̃ ˈriɕiə̯ɾʃalan jɔ slʊʒeˈbenu nat͡sjuˈnaloɾ ˈdelːe ˈbasːe ˈteɾe ʃi ˈune aɾˈtiklɛ di miə̯ɲ ˈvjejlɐ ˈriɕiə̯ɾʃɐ jɔ luksemˈborgo | ˈahor sᵊje faˈtigo mə sᵊje ˈfiʃto per miə̯ɲ ˈtɾavɐ jɔ lavoraˈtoɾo rekomenˈsarɛ]
This week, I handed in an application for a grant from the Dutch national research service and an article on my old research from Luxembourg. Now I'm tired, but ready to get back to my labwork.

Qimba waq bal, bemahŋuyan bal ngen waqene qamese nii siphu.
/ˈʔiᵐba waʔ bal | bəˈmahŋujan bal ᵑɡən ˈwaʔənə ˈʔaməsə niː ˈsipʰu/

qimba waq bal, be=mah-ŋu=yan bal ngen waq-ene qamese nii siphu
surprise do.IPFV 1s, 1s=do.PFV-TEL=already 1s POSS do-ing half COP finished.thing

I’m surprised that my assignment is already half complete.

斯の宿遣は何乃けい？
「いのやどりぜえはえちゆけい？」 (i-no ya-do-ri-se-e-ha e-ti-yu ho-'-i)
Ino edorise-ya etsu ké?
[o.n̪ò̞ᵝ e̞.d̪o̞ᵝ.ɾ̪ʲí.s̪è|j̀ɐ̞̀ e̞.t̪͡s̪ʲỳᵝ cé]
proximal-det.GEN residence.task.DEF what QUESTION-TAG
What's your assignment (lit. "residence task")?

(This doesn't work if the assignment isn't homework.)

Fawetleyinga thaŋyan fawetl memban nii; qifawetlimu ŋande siweli maak yam tleŋ, qantambu qifawetlŋu qisiweli maak sul tleŋ. Bal ngen waqene qamese thaŋna ngii siphu.

say-er=surprise the=already say.IMPF wrong is; he=say.PFV=PST question has.IMPF-CONT mark one the.PL, now=contrariwise he=say.IMPF it=has.IMPF-CONT mark three the.PL. I POSS do-ing half the=thus is.not finished.thing

The lecturer has just said there was a mistake; he had said a question was one mark, but now he says it’s actually three marks. Thus I have not finished half the assignment.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:39 am 斯の宿遣は何乃けい？

Besiwe lhiise guqle maŋese paatli ŋande tlii fas analytical chemistry.

1s=see search response give question PL at analytical chemistry

I need to answer some questions about analytical chemistry.

[QEDIT: siifa memban tleŋ]

Waqenemu thaŋba nii siphu, bena mahtsitewu bal ngen fawetl tleŋ qanta.

do-ing=PST the.SG=still is finished.thing, 1s=thus do.PFV-DIM=REP 1s POSS speech the.PL now

Now that I finally finished my assignment, I can conlang a bit.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:33 am Waqenemu thaŋba nii siphu, bena mahtsitewu bal ngen fawetl tleŋ qanta.

do-ing=PST the.SG=still is finished.thing, 1s=thus do.PFV-DIM=REP 1s POSS speech the.PL now

Now that I finally finished my assignment, I can conlang a bit.

宿遣は 怎り 在れけ け？
「やどりせいは えとり あれけ けい？」
Edorise-ya etori arike kyo?
[e̞.d̪o̞ᵝ.ɾ̪ʲí.s̪è|j̀ɐ̞̀ e̞.t̪ó̞ᵝ.ɾ̪ʲì ɐ̞.ɾ̪ʲí.c͡çè c͡çi̯o̞̞ᵝ]
assignment.DEF how(of what quality?) copula.REMOTE-PAST QUESTION-TAG
"How was the assignment?"

凨書の 乱いはへ 名方の間 在るれどが 思る。
「ていぜけの みたせいはへ なかたのまるあれどがいゑる。」
Tezeki no mitaseyae nakata no ma aruredo ga iweru.
[te̞.z̪é̞.c͡çì n̪o̞ᵝ mᶣi.tɐ̞́.s̪è̞|jɛ͜e n̪ɐ̞.kɐ̞́.t̪ɐ̞̀ n̪o̞ᵝ mɐ̞ ɐ̞ɾ̪ʉ́ᵝ.ɾ̪è̞.d̪o̞ᵝ gɐ̞ i.βé̞.ɾ̪ʉ̀ᵝ]
wind.write GEN mixup.NOM.DEF.LOC name.direction GEN space COPULA.CONDITIONAL QUOTE think.PREDICATIVE
"I think there would be spaces in that mess of kana."

良しみ方 在れ ほっい？
「よしめかた あれ ほっい？」
Yoschemikata are hoi?
[jo̞ᵝ.ʃɘ̀.mᶣi.kɐ̞́.t̪ɐ̞̀ ɐ̞.ɾ̪è̞ xo̞ᵝ.i]
good.INF.COMPARATIVE/SUPERLATIVE COPULA.EXCLAMATORY QUESTION-TAG
"That's better, now isn't it?"

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 11:06 am 宿遣は 怎り 在れけ け？

Yaareebemsoow.
/ˈjaːˌreːbemˌsoːw/
3s.ABS-good-PST.PFV

It was good.

(More is difficult to say, at least until my conlangs get words for ‘X-ray diffraction’, ‘electrochemical cell’ or ‘thermogravimetric analysis’.)

𝒑𝒊𝒏𝒂𝒌𝒐 𝒌𝒂𝒏𝒚𝒐𝒌𝒊 𝒎𝒆 𝒑𝒂𝒌𝒂𝒕𝒍𝒐 𝒖𝒂𝒌𝒐𝒏 𝒌𝒂𝒏𝒚𝒐
wise-AG question-REFL but foolish-AG s/o-else-ACC question
The wise man asks questions of himself; the fool questions others.

Anybody else get the urge to suddenly translate poetry and make something that sounds flowery?

Original:

Summer twilight falls, the cicadas rest,
And the katydids, now at ev'n's behest,
With the crickets join, that the skies inspire —
By their bright-streak'd hues, leaf-wings set afire

Ineshîmé:

雨書：夏夕闇、蝉ら 眠ら
凬書：なつゆ゙やみ、とをぎら ねら
狼間書：Natsuluemi, tōjira nera
IPA: [n̪ɐ̞̀.t̪͡s̪ʲỳᵝ.ʎýᵝ.ᶣé̞.mᶣì || t̪ó̞͜ó̞.ʑí.ɾ̪ɐ̞̀ n̪é̞.ɾ̪ɐ̞̀]
Gloss: summer.evening.shadow cicada.DEF.PL sleep.IMMEDIATE-FUTURE
Back-Translation: "Summer twilight, the cicadas (will soon) sleep"

雨書：日切り 願け 蛬ら
凬書：ひきり のれけ きりぎりら
狼間書：Hisch'ri noreki Chirijĕrira
IPA: [çíɕ.ɾ̪ʲì n̪ó̞ᵝ.ɾ̪é̞.c͡çì || c͡ɕí.ɾ̪ʲì.ʒɘ̀.ɾ̪ʲí.ɾ̪ɐ̞̀]
Gloss: day.terminate(lit.:cut) ask.PAST katydid.PLURAL
Back-Translation: "The katydids (that are) asked by twilight"

雨書：歌虫らと、天が 息い
凬書：をたむし、あまが いけい
狼間書：Wotamûsch'ra-to, ama-ga ike
IPA: [ʋó̞ᵝ.t̪ɐ̞̀.mʉ́͜ʉ́ᵝʃ.ɾ̪ɐ̞̀.t̪ò̞ᵝ || ɐ̞́.mɐ̞̀.gɐ̞́ ì.c͡çé̞]
Gloss: cricket(lit:song.insect).PLURAL.COMITATIVE heaven.NONTOPICAL-DEFINITE inspire.INFINITIVE
Back-Translation: "Join with crickets, the heavens the inspiration,"

雨書：明かり 色と、葉翎 火れ
凬書：あかり しけ、ははでい ほれ
狼間書：Akari shik'to, hahade hore
IPA: [ɐ̞́.kɐ̞̀.ɾ̪ʲí ɕíc͡ç.t̪ò̞ᵝ. xɐ̞́.xɐ̞́.d̪è̞ xó̞ᵝ.ɾ̪è̞]
Gloss: bright-and-streaked colour.INSTRUMENTAL, leaf.wing.INDEFINITE fire.EXCLAMATORY
Back-Translation: "By bright-streaked colours, leaf wings blazing."

Notes:

• 雨書「あめいぜけ」(Amezeki) IPA: [ɐ̞̀.mé̞.zé̞.c͡çì], literally "rain characters"; of unclear etymology (externally, from confusion with 雨 "ame" - "rain", and 天 "ama" - "heaven", sometimes used to refer to China).
• 凬書「てぜけ」(Tezeki) IPA: [t̪è̞.z̪é.c͡çì], literally "wind characters", from a dialect reading of standard 手書「たぜけ」(tazeki) IPA: [t̪ɐ̞́.z̪é.c͡çì].
• 狼間書「らふまぜけ」(Rōmazeki) IPA: [ɾ̪ó̞͜ó̞ᵝ.mɐ̞̀.z̪è̞.c͡çì]; these would not exist world-internally, so it's simply a phonetic transcription of Latin "Roma".
• Messy inconsistent readings of し, き、ぎ、け and sequences ending in -い are historically-conditioned, or based in convention, in ways that are rather too long to explain here.
• Any instance of "ĕ" (having a number of very short articulations, but tending to default to [ɘ]) may be dropped in speech, the forms specifically apocopated here are to get the desired number of syllables.
• Distinction between [ɕ~ʃ] and [ʑ~ʒ] is allophonic, with the pure palatals [ɕ ʑ] appearing in contact with , and the palato-alveolar [ʃ ʒ] appearing usually elsewhere.
• Past tense marker け, having a variety of historically-conditioned readings (usually -ke, -ki), is cognate to Classical Japanese き (ki), and may be from a Proto-Japonic verb *k(o2)-u "come, come to be, arrive".
• The definite pluraliser ら (ra) is not mandatory, but is very common in both speech and writing; cognate to the element ら mostly appearing in Japanese pronouns — 僕ら (bokura - "we") — and is still productive.
• Protolanguage shift of */j/ > */l/ was originally conditioned by a low pitch.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:09 pm Anybody else get the urge to suddenly translate poetry and make something that sounds flowery?

No.

_____________________________

Bal ngen qegsaam tleŋyan tshaal qalit sul tlii yusaa. Beba lhiisiŋu fawetl qitham tleŋ maag, bena ŋandu quna tuq.

me POSS exam the.PL=already leave.IMPF day three a.PL come.IMPF. me=still see.PFV-TEL speech some the.PL not, me=thus twist.IMPF stomach very

My exams are already in three days. I’m very worried as I still haven’t watched some lectures.


And I suppose that if I don’t want to be out-competed I now need to make even more notes than Rounin Ryuuji did:

• ‘X is in Y days’ is a rather odd construction, when you think about it. This language (nope, still hasn’t got a name yet; it’s only a protolanguage) substitutes a different metaphor: ‘X comes from Y days’.
• In fact, ‘comes from’ here uses an SVC rather than a preposition, making it: ‘X leaves Y days comes’.
• This language makes rather extensive use of second-position clitics. This text uses three: =yan ‘already’, =ba ‘still’, =na ‘thus’. The translations are in general rather inadequate, but here match up well enough with their meanings.
• Furthermore, the 2P clitics can be divided into two classes. All such clitics in this text are Class II clitics, meaning that they can interrupt a subject=verb cluster: the alternation is between be=lhiisi-ŋu=ba and be=ba lhiisi-ŋu, or between be=ŋandu=na vs be=na ŋandu.
• Exams are not a common feature of life in the steppe/jungle/desert/wherever the Urheimat eventually ends up, so I have been forced to appropriate the word as a loan. The orthography is slightly misleading in this case; it’s actually pronounced /ʔəɣˈsaːm/.
• Note that articles, and especially definite articles, are more common than in English. This is partly because possessives don’t fill the ‘determiner’ slot (insofar as one exists), partly because articles obligatorily mark plurality, and partly because this language simply marks more NPs as definite.
• Most verbs are in their imperfective form. This sounds odd in English — ?‘I’m being very worried’ — but is fine as the imperfective is functionally unmarked in this language.
• The exception is lhiisiŋu ‘see.PFV-TEL’, which is in the telic aspect (requiring the perfective form) as it focuses on the end result of the seeing (or lack thereof). Telic aspect + =na in adjacent clauses is the usual construction for resultatives.
• ‘Be worried’ is an idiom: tuq quna ‘twist stomach’. Quna doesn’t have an article as it’s a coverb. (As I’ve said before, this language has a closed verb class, and makes extensive use of the coverb+inflected verb pattern.)
• This also accounts for the unusual word order: tuq goes after the VP, which would normally just be after the verb, but here is after the coverb.

Do wež oož, šev eqeŋŋawanad.
[d̪ɔ͍ ˈw͍ɛʒ ɔ͍ːʒ | ˈʃɛv͆ ɛˈʔɛŋːɐw͍ɐn̪ɐd̪̚]

do

PST

wež

use.eyes

o(o)-

DEF(c)

ž

1S

|

|

šev

be.visible

eqe(e)-

SPEC(d)

ŋawanad

raccoon

I saw a raccoon.

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am [ɔ͍ [...] w͍]

What in tarnation is that?!

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 amI saw a raccoon.

Imralu! Mi in luk yu afta yon de! Wo gwan?
Imralu! I haven't seen you for a long time! How are you doing?


JAL

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am Do wež oož, šev eqeŋŋawanad.
[d̪ɔ͍ ˈw͍ɛʒ ɔ͍ːʒ | ˈʃɛv͆ ɛˈʔɛŋːɐw͍ɐn̪ɐd̪̚]

do

PST

wež

use.eyes

o(o)-

DEF(c)

ž

1S

|

|

šev

be.visible

eqe(e)-

SPEC(d)

ŋawanad

raccoon

I saw a raccoon.

Dɵklʉ́n dí ple á ehb. Ɵhlêdiʔa maʔ noʔ ni ple é nɵ. Hlʉ̂ maʔ noʔ ni ple é nɵ.
[dɵ̀kl̥ʉ́n dí pl̥è á e̤b ‖ ɵ̀hl̥êdìʔà ma̰ no̰ nì pl̥è é nɵ̀ ‖ hl̥ʉ̂ ma̰ no̰ nì pl̥è é nɵ̀]
//‘raccoon’ dí pdé=a e̤b ‖ ‘Australia’ maʔ noʔ nì pdé=e nɵ̀ ‖ hdʉ̂ maʔ noʔ nì pdé=e nɵ̀//
raccoon see NEG=1|2 DECL. Australia CL.place LOC COP NEG=3 DECL. Hlʉ̂ CL.place LOC COP NEG=3 DECL

I’ve never seen a racoon. There are no racoons in Australia. There are no racoons in Hlʉ̂ country.

But also: welcome back Imralu! The thread has been very quiet without you.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:39 pm

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am [ɔ͍ [...] w͍]

What in tarnation is that?!

Compression.

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:53 am

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 amI saw a raccoon.

Imralu! Mi in luk yu afta yon de! Wo gwan?
Imralu! I haven't seen you for a long time! How are you doing?

G'oož.
[ɠɔ͍ːʒ]

g

do

o(o)-

DEF(c)

ž

1S

Alright, plodding along.
(Literally essentially "I'm an agent" rather than a patient. I am causing doing stuff rather than having stuff done to me.)

Hem aal, mad uug?
[ˈhɛm ɐːɫ | mɐd̪ ʊ͍ːɡ̚]

hem

topic

a(a)-

DEF(b)

l

2S

|

|

mad

what

u(u)-

DEF.3(a)

What about you? How are you doing?
(Literally essentially "With regard to you, what are the agents?" i.e. what are the things influencing your life?

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:16 am Dɵklʉ́n dí ple á ehb. Ɵhlêdiʔa maʔ noʔ ni ple é nɵ. Hlʉ̂ maʔ noʔ ni ple é nɵ.
[dɵ̀kl̥ʉ́n dí pl̥è á e̤b ‖ ɵ̀hl̥êdìʔà ma̰ no̰ nì pl̥è é nɵ̀ ‖ hl̥ʉ̂ ma̰ no̰ nì pl̥è é nɵ̀]
//‘raccoon’ dí pdé=a e̤b ‖ ‘Australia’ maʔ noʔ nì pdé=e nɵ̀ ‖ hdʉ̂ maʔ noʔ nì pdé=e nɵ̀//
raccoon see NEG=1|2 DECL. Australia CL.place LOC COP NEG=3 DECL. Hlʉ̂ CL.place LOC COP NEG=3 DECL

I’ve never seen a racoon. There are no racoons in Australia. There are no racoons in Hlʉ̂ country.

Do do kqa wež ool, täb ooŋ.
[ɖ̪ɔ͍ d̪ɔ kʼɐ ˈwɛʒ ɔ͍ːʒ | tæb ɔ͍ːŋ]

do

PST

do

PST

kqa

NEG

wež

use.eyes

o(o)-

DEF(c)

ž

1S

|

|

täb

same

o(o)-

DEF(c)

ŋ

1P.INCL

I hadn't seen one either.

Wel idDžamaniq, qol eqeŋŋawanad, d'uttim.
[w͍ɛɫ ˈɪdː͡ʒɐmɐnɪʔ | ˈʔɔ͍ɫ ɛˈʔɛŋːɐw͍ɐn̪ɐd̪̚ | ˈd̪ʊ͍t̪ːɪm]

wel

location

i(i)-

DEF(e)

Džamaniq

Germany

|

|

qol

entity

eʔe(e)-

SPEC(d)

ŋawanad

raccoon

|

|

d

use.hand

u(u)-

DEF(a)

tim

people

There are raccoons in Germany that were introduced by people

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:16 amBut also: welcome back Imralu! The thread has been very quiet without you.

He leg eel.
[hɛ ˈɫɛɡ ɛːɫ]

he

JUSS

leg

receive

e(e)-

DEF(d)

l

2S

Thank you!

Neonnaut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:23 am

Raholeun wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:39 pm

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:51 am [ɔ͍ [...] w͍]

What in tarnation is that?!

Compression.

Yes, exactly. <o u w> are not rounded in this language. I could have used the "less rounded" diacritic: "ɔ̜ ʊ̜ w̜", but that implies that they are somewhat rounded. I could have used the unrounded symbols: ʌ ɰ, but (1) there is no symbol equivalent to an unrounded ʊ and (2) that would imply that these sounds are not labialised, which is not true, so I used the labial spreading diacritic: ɔ͍ ʊ͍ w͍, basically to indicate that these sounds are unrounded without any connotation of being unlabialised. The reason these are unrounded is one of anatomy. Speakers with normal human anatomy would often pronounce these as rounded and also wouldn't pronounce v and f as dentolabials.

Balmu ngen qegsaam yandu thaŋ nii siphu! Bal ngen waqene thaŋ daw tshayelŋu ndisiine thaŋ.

bal=mu

1s=PST

ngen

POSS

qegsaam

exam

yan-du

one-th

thaŋ

DEF.SG

nii

COP

siphu

finish

|

|

bal

1s

ngen

POSS

waq-ene

do-NMLZ

thaŋ

DEF.SG

tshayel-ŋu

leave.PFV-TEL

ndisii-ne

think-NMLZ

thaŋ

DEF.SG

I’ve finished my first exam! It went better than I was expecting.

(Sorry for all the university-related posts recently, but (a) it’s been on my mind and (b) if nothing else it keeps the thread alive.)

Imralu wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:27 am

Neonnaut wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:23 am

Raholeun wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:39 pm What in tarnation is that?!

Compression.

Yes, exactly. <o u w> are not rounded in this language. I could have used the "less rounded" diacritic: "ɔ̜ ʊ̜ w̜", but that implies that they are somewhat rounded. I could have used the unrounded symbols: ʌ ɰ, but (1) there is no symbol equivalent to an unrounded ʊ and (2) that would imply that these sounds are not labialised, which is not true, so I used the labial spreading diacritic: ɔ͍ ʊ͍ w͍, basically to indicate that these sounds are unrounded without any connotation of being unlabialised. The reason these are unrounded is one of anatomy. Speakers with normal human anatomy would often pronounce these as rounded and also wouldn't pronounce v and f as dentolabials.

But surely labialisation and rounding are the same thing?

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:42 amBut surely labialisation and rounding are the same thing?

Labialisation is generally rounding, but lips can do other things that impact the sound than becoming round. They can come close together with the outer corners still far apart. If the speakers have projecting canine teeth, rounding could be impossible, but there can still be other types of labialisation. Even in English, there are different types of rounding. Compare the shape of your lips when you say /w/ and when you say /ʃ/.

Thanks for the explanation Imralu. Only after some sessions of confused inspections and putting the browser to 200% zoom I could make out the little IPA runes were in fact double sides arrows. Perhaps I need glasses...

Raholeun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 am Thanks for the explanation Imralu. Only after some sessions of confused inspections and putting the browser to 200% zoom I could make out the little IPA runes were in fact double sides arrows. Perhaps I need glasses...

Glasses wouldn't help when the little points on the arrows are not even a full pixel and only vaguely detectable through a slight colour alteration. It's only really clear if you zoom.