Elections in various countries

[Raphael]

I don't consider myself to be represented by these sectarians...
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lÀ{±´lÂlÀSSq±dn

Point is, people who have very different views than yours deserve representation, too. But people like you always seem to assume that only you and your friends should be represented, and more generally, that only you and your friends have rights.

[Travis B.]

Furthermore, France is a democracy, and in liberal democracies it is the will of the majority that takes precedence (while there are rights guaranteed for all people) -- and here it was the majority who chose to vote for the NFP or for Ensemble, rather than for the RN. You might not have liked the outcome of the election, but that gives you no right to complain about how people like you are "not represented", because for you to be "represented" as you think the word means means that the majority would not be represented.

[keenir]

I think thats a confession. and an admission of not knowing what words mean.

I often feel like you're looking at my finger when I'm pointing at the moon...

given how you deliberately make yourself hard to understand, thats what kids call A You Problem.

it's true that I'm reluctant to use my finger to point at the moon...

I'm starting to think you don't know which orbital object is the Moon.

I do not particularly wish to disabuse you,

so, you don't want to prove that any of us are wrong, when we say that you're being fascist?

I am only adding nuances
which may be superfluous for you...

I have yet to see you type nuance.

[xxx]

Point is, people who have very different views than yours deserve representation, too. But people like you always seem to assume that only you and your friends should be represented, and more generally, that only you and your friends have rights.

not true,
I'm very attached to plurality...
to the point of representing here
the only discordant voice in this left-wing concert...
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[Travis B.]

[snip]

The "voice" you "represent" embodies racism and fascism. In no way is this acceptable, and in no way should this be "represented".

[xxx]

The "voice" you "represent" embodies racism and fascism. In no way is this acceptable, and in no way should this be "represented".

...

[MacAnDàil]

I agree. But, despite this, we shall still have go for someone to the right of our lukewarm social democracy because many object to the rhetoric without looking at what it means.

LFI's rhetoric and general divisiveness on the left are I think pretty off-putting. LFI's positions on international policy are unclear and that tends to scare people off.
There's been a lot of talk about who would be a left-wing prime minister both before and after the elections. For those following from abroad, NFP still hasn't decided. Before the elections, this opened the flank to attack; NFP opponents and the media could scare voters with Mélenchon PM. Now that the elections have passed, it feels disappointing and ridiculous.

Not that other left-wing parties are any better. Many people in the PS have an interesting line; others are stuck in 2012 and are pushing something pretty close to Macron behind the scenes. I don't know what the problem is with EELV (ie, the Greens) but I think they're hindered by infighting; also some of their prominent figures just... aren't very good at convincing people.

It is a bit disappointing that they haven't decided because Olivier Faure, Huguette Bello and Laurence Tubiana among others would all be good but 1° they're still better than the main alternatives and 2° other transitions took longer. I think the Greens, among others, would do a lot better if people made their arguments based on science instead of CNEWS.

Ok, folks.

I feel this is yet another instance of far right trolling.
I'm beginning to be familiar with that, either online or in real life. In fact, this is how political debate is done now, even political campaigns.

Suddenly the topics shifts to discussing how acceptable bigotry is. Decent people get angry, both at the bigotry (which is offensive) and at the vague and shifting nature of the far right argument, and then suddenly they're the insulting, crazy and incoherent one. That's probably the goal of the whole maneuver.

I'm not interested in playing that game; in fact I don't even want to be in a place where that game is played, so I guess I'll be taking a bit of a break.

The problem is that that leaves the place without your sensible voice and with still the bigoted one. The key is probably to keep one's calm and confidence.

[Ares Land]

I'm tentatively coming back here, as it looks like the trolling has abated a little.

The problem is that that leaves the place without your sensible voice and with still the bigoted one. The key is probably to keep one's calm and confidence.

And sometimes the 'sensible voice' is just feeding the troll.

It is a bit disappointing that they haven't decided because Olivier Faure, Huguette Bello and Laurence Tubiana among others would all be good but 1° they're still better than the main alternatives and 2° other transitions took longer. I think the Greens, among others, would do a lot better if people made their arguments based on science instead of CNEWS.

I'm more than a little disappointed. For those following from afar, we've had, what two weeks of farcical debate about who would hypothetically be the NFP prime minister. But no problem, fortunately, we don't have anything urgent to handle, like climate change, a close call with fascism, a medical system breaking down, or the poorest 30% having trouble getting food on the table.
On the bright side, because there's always one, we can see very plainly which of the left-wing parties is interested in stupid power games (LFI, PS) and which are trying to figure out some kind of solution (the Greens, the communists) -- useful information for voters!

I won't argue with you on the damage CNEWS is doing. (That's a far right news channel for those not in the know.) But I'm not as optimistic about basing arguments on science. In my little social circle of engineers, people are very excited about Jancovici (an engineer and climate activist) for instance -- but for all his being an engineer and on the side of scientific evidence, he's part of the problem. Not a single word about the RN threat, for instance, and a very disturbing authoritarian stance.

[xxx]

the left wing talks a lot to argue
but regularly puts antisemitism forward
which gives it no legitimacy to govern,
while the right wing like one man is ready to follow Macron,
and the far right is counting the points and getting stronger...
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[Ares Land]

the left wing talks a lot to argue
but regularly puts antisemitism forward
which gives it no legitimacy to govern,

I'd push the question of legitimacy aside. The left-wing is never legitimate in this country. Even the very sedate François Hollande was too much to handle; I remember the right-wing having fits about his very, very moderate center-left stance.
Now, LFI is illegitimate; if LFI didn't exist, centrists and right-wingers would then find the Greens illegitimate; if there were no greens or LFI, they'd find something unacceptable and undemocratic about the PS.

As for antisemitism -- what is happening right now is that a few LFI members are saying that the Israeli delegation 'is not welcome' at the Olympics. That's a really stupid idea, but they have a point. It's not antisemitic to have qualms about countries with a far-right government, war crimes, and official representation from a country with a far-right government guilty of war crimes.

All that being said... Yes, LFI is doing its best to appear illegitimate. It's very clear that they're not interested in being legitimate, or in governing. I don't know what they want -- possibly Mélenchon wants the presidency in 2027. They're not alone; the PS does its best to appear illegitimate too; they want their pre-2017 status as the only serious left-wing party. Neither party is even interested in governing.

[xxx]

so what, you think the right should govern...
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[Ares Land]

so what, you think the right should govern...
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tNJ¸u¼êÁºZs¸ò¸^

What I want and what is going to happen are two different things

I'd much prefer a left-wing government. The NFP platform is a good one, and even getting some of it applied would be a good thing. I don't really believe this is happening.

There are good people on the left who are doing what they can to salvage it and I'm happy about that but I'm more interested in the next elections and what can be done to prepare them.

It looks like we're going to get a sort of unofficial coalition involving centrists and the right-wing. It's really not ideal, but there just aren't enough left-wing voters anyway.

[Ares Land]

Oh, the news always have a way to contradict me... The NFP did agree on a name for Prime Minister, after two painful weeks -- Lucie Castets (a high ranking civil servant; I don't think many people ever heard about her.) Macron won't name her though -- barring unusual developments. He insists on a larger coalition. It's also very likely not much will happen until the Olympics.

[keenir]

so what, you think the right should govern...

That isn't what was said. (I'd add "and you know it" but its hard to tell what you are aware of, vs what you want to quibble or argue)

[xxx]

read more carefully, I was replying to ares...
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[keenir]

read more carefully, I was replying to ares...

read what more carefully? and you were replying to which part of Ares Land's posts? you're the only one who thinks they're cool and edgy to drop a vague one-liner in response to a well-thought-out reply.

[xxx]

[MacAnDàil]

Oh, the news always have a way to contradict me... The NFP did agree on a name for Prime Minister, after two painful weeks -- Lucie Castets (a high ranking civil servant; I don't think many people ever heard about her.) Macron won't name her though -- barring unusual developments. He insists on a larger coalition. It's also very likely not much will happen until the Olympics.

In other good news from France, C8, a Bolloré-owned TV chain, won't be available on terrestial TV any more.

[xxx]

hanuna deep attack, when he dominated his time slot...
strangely enough, while I can't stand either the character or the show's concept,
I found him pertinent in his political shows...

[MacAnDàil]

I won't argue with you on the damage CNEWS is doing. (That's a far right news channel for those not in the know.) But I'm not as optimistic about basing arguments on science. In my little social circle of engineers, people are very excited about Jancovici (an engineer and climate activist) for instance -- but for all his being an engineer and on the side of scientific evidence, he's part of the problem. Not a single word about the RN threat, for instance, and a very disturbing authoritarian stance.

As a climate activist, he is proposing improving things so I would not necessarily say he's part of a problem. He doesn't speak publicy about anything other than these specialties of ecology and engineering so not saying anything about the RN threat is no exception to his general focus. In a sense, it's an improvement on those, like Didier Raoult, who go out of their domain of expertise and find themselves out of their depth.