Zompist Bboard Again

Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I think dæt is my most common register of that

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:52 pm I think thæt is my most common register of that

Considering that is its pronunciation in Standard English...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this question… surely /ðæt/ is the standard pronunciation of that? Indeed, ignoring its reduced form /ðət/, I’m pretty sure it’s the only pronunciation I’ve ever heard.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this question… surely /ðæt/ is the standard pronunciation of that? Indeed, ignoring its reduced form /ðət/, I’m pretty sure it’s the only pronunciation I’ve ever heard.

What I mean is that at least in the dialect here that has an allomorph /æt/ in addition to its more standard morph /ðæt/, and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about this. Note that this is not a general dropping of initial /ð/, because this is the only case in which it outright disappears initially here (even though /ð/ easily assimilates to preceding consonants).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:26 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this question… surely /ðæt/ is the standard pronunciation of that? Indeed, ignoring its reduced form /ðət/, I’m pretty sure it’s the only pronunciation I’ve ever heard.

What I mean is that at least in the dialect here that has an allomorph /æt/ in addition to its more standard morph /ðæt/, and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about this. Note that this is not a general dropping of initial /ð/, because this is the only case in which it outright disappears initially here (even though /ð/ easily assimilates to preceding consonants).

Oh, sorry, misread /æt/ as /æ/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:26 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this question… surely /ðæt/ is the standard pronunciation of that? Indeed, ignoring its reduced form /ðət/, I’m pretty sure it’s the only pronunciation I’ve ever heard.

What I mean is that at least in the dialect here that has an allomorph /æt/ in addition to its more standard morph /ðæt/, and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about this. Note that this is not a general dropping of initial /ð/, because this is the only case in which it outright disappears initially here (even though /ð/ easily assimilates to preceding consonants).

I happen to also have a Milwaukee accent (though I've lived out of state for almost three years so it's being diluted I'm sure), and I also have this sort of elided that, though for me it often has an initial consonant something like [ɰ~ʁ̞], which is sort of parallel to my /l/ and /r/, which have both "darkened coronal" and "fully dorsal but not vocalized" realizations. I agree that this doesn't happen with all /ð/ words yet, but to me it seems like that allophony spreading first to high-frequency words, and I've also noticed it happening (in my own speech and in others') in the, this, and though.

Edit – come to think of it, it could also be a generalization of the them–em alternation.

salem wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:23 am Edit – come to think of it, it could also be a generalization of the them–em alternation.

The thing about the them~em alternation is that em is not etymologically related to them (it is derived from Middle English hem), and em practically always exists as a clitic, generally after a verb, whereas /æt/ for that seems to most commonly show up utterance-initially (I cannot recall saying or hearing it in the middle of an utterance).

Can /æt/ take initial glottal stop? It can't for me, and it varies with [ð̞æt] with a [ð̞] that's barely there.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I never have this except in the standard attaboy/attagirl.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:29 pm Can /æt/ take initial glottal stop? It can't for me, and it varies with [ð̞æt] with a [ð̞] that's barely there.

That sounds right to me; it sounds odd when I try to pronounce it with an initial glottal stop.

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I never have this except in the standard attaboy/attagirl.

Oh, is that what ‘attaboy’ is supposed to mean? (Mind you, not that that makes sense anyway… ‘that’s a boy’?)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:44 am

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

I never have this except in the standard attaboy/attagirl.

Oh, is that what ‘attaboy’ is supposed to mean? (Mind you, not that that makes sense anyway… ‘that’s a boy’?)

'that's my boy' makes sense

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:08 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:44 am

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:03 pm

I never have this except in the standard attaboy/attagirl.

Oh, is that what ‘attaboy’ is supposed to mean? (Mind you, not that that makes sense anyway… ‘that’s a boy’?)

'that's my boy' makes sense

According to Wiktionary and Merriam Webster online "attaboy" is an alteration of "that's the boy!".

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:25 pm Does anyone know anything about the variant /æt/ of that? I have it and I have heard my daughter use it. And it clearly is not a variant of it to me; it feels like an allomorph of that rather than an independent word.

The pronunciation of that as /at/ is common in Scots and the dialects of Northern England; like many other features of Anglic varieties sitting above the Humber-Lune line, this is probably at least in part attributable to Scandinavian influence (c.f. Old Norse at, Icelandic að "that"). However, as I'm unaware of any exceptional Northern English or Scots influence on the dialects of the Great Lakes region, I suspect the Scandinavian influence is more recent in your case; lack of /ð/ in that could've easily spread into Wisconsin from Scandinavian-heavy Minnesota.

/ð/: "Hi, I'm the least robust phoneme in the universe. Literally sneeze and I'm gone forever."
ZBB: "How could this phoneme possibly fail to show up where it's supposed to? Could it be the reflex of an archaic pronominal clitic? Are Vikings to blame?"

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:56 pm/ð/: "Hi, I'm the least robust phoneme in the universe. Literally sneeze and I'm gone forever."

/tʙ̥/: “Am I a joke to you?”

Kinda, yeah.

I have heard it suggested that the Pirahã suddenly starting to use /tʙ̥/ around Everett was literally just a joke. Like they were bored and wanted to fuck with him so they started sticking raspberries in random words.

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 4:42 am I have heard it suggested that the Pirahã suddenly starting to use /tʙ̥/ around Everett was literally just a joke. Like they were bored and wanted to fuck with him so they started sticking raspberries in random words.

Isn’t it also seen in Wariʼ, at least?

(Personally, I think it’s no less weird than [ʙ], and that’s well-attested as a phoneme.)

EDIT: looking it up, apparently it occurs allophonically in Ubykh, too. (Although Wikipedia gives no source, which makes it suspicious.)