Zompist Bboard Again

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 1:45 am

Emily wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 12:16 am

• "in the popular dialects" [θ] and [ð] are sometimes completely replaced by [t] and [d]: think [tɪŋk], that [dæt] — i've heard [dæt] before, but never [tɪŋk], at least not from a u.s. native speaker

I think "popular" here might mean "AAVE". TH-stopping exists sporadically on this side of the pond too, most notably Irish English where the dental think [t̪ɪŋk] contrasts with the alveolar tink [tɪŋk].

Stops in place of [θð] were by no means limited to AAVE in the early 20th century— it was stereotypical lower class or big-city pronunciation. Immigration from Italy, Germany, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America undoubtedly reinforced it.

(I'm sure it hasn't died out, either, but I expect it's receded.)

zompist wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 4:35 pm

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 1:45 am

Emily wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 12:16 am

• "in the popular dialects" [θ] and [ð] are sometimes completely replaced by [t] and [d]: think [tɪŋk], that [dæt] — i've heard [dæt] before, but never [tɪŋk], at least not from a u.s. native speaker

I think "popular" here might mean "AAVE". TH-stopping exists sporadically on this side of the pond too, most notably Irish English where the dental think [t̪ɪŋk] contrasts with the alveolar tink [tɪŋk].

Stops in place of [θð] were by no means limited to AAVE in the early 20th century— it was stereotypical lower class or big-city pronunciation. Immigration from Italy, Germany, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America undoubtedly reinforced it.

(I'm sure it hasn't died out, either, but I expect it's receded.)

To me the classically marked stopping is realizing /ð/ as an alveolar [d] ─ I generally-unconsciously realize initial /θ ð/ as dental stops except in careful speech, but realizing /ð/ as an alveolar stop is characteristically basilectal, and I tend to not do it in contexts such as work even when I do things like inflict horrible elisions on my Indian coworkers and expect them to somehow understand.

Emily wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 12:16 am popular speech often has [fɪft], [sɪkst] for fifth, sixth

The forms of these ordinals with /t/ are historically more original (going back to Old English fīfta, siexta; the First Folio employs the spellings <fift, sixt>, though the spelling evidence indicates that the present analogical forms with <-th> were already present in Late Middle English.

Emily wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 12:16 am intrusive [θ] in height was already widespread in 1919

Again, this is a archaism with roots in OE (Anglian hēhþu, hēþ), though the prevalence of heighth in the modern dialects is probably due to analogy rather than failure of the ME change [xθ] > [xt]. However, widespread dialectal drouth likely directly continues drūgaþ more directly; in many dialects [ɣ] was lost before the syncope and devoicing that would allow it to participate in the aforementioned change could occur (in fact, I would consider the standard form with [t] somewhat puzzling, though its genuineness is vouched for by dialectal [drʊft]).

zompist wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 4:35 pm

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 1:45 am

Emily wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 12:16 am

• "in the popular dialects" [θ] and [ð] are sometimes completely replaced by [t] and [d]: think [tɪŋk], that [dæt] — i've heard [dæt] before, but never [tɪŋk], at least not from a u.s. native speaker

I think "popular" here might mean "AAVE". TH-stopping exists sporadically on this side of the pond too, most notably Irish English where the dental think [t̪ɪŋk] contrasts with the alveolar tink [tɪŋk].

Stops in place of [θð] were by no means limited to AAVE in the early 20th century— it was stereotypical lower class or big-city pronunciation. Immigration from Italy, Germany, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America undoubtedly reinforced it.

(I'm sure it hasn't died out, either, but I expect it's receded.)

Th-stopping in AAVE occurs in words like "that" sounding like "dat", but not in words in "think" which doesn't typically sound like "tink" in AAVE. "Tink" for "think" is more a feature of Caribbean English varieties.

Th-stopping was traditionally common in New York City. Combined with the traditional pronunciation of the NURSE vowel there, it led to "toity-toid street" for "33rd Street".

f, v

• nephew can be either [ˈnɛfju] or [ˈnɛvju], though the former is more common
• [fθ] sometimes becomes [pθ] in words like diphthong, diphtheria, naphtha
• words ending in [-f] whose plural form can be either [-fs] or [-vz] include hoof, scarf; he lists the vowel of hoof as [uː]

w, ʍ

• reservoir is usually [ˈrɛzɚɹˌvwɑɹ] or [ˈrɛzɚɹˌvwɔɹ], but often [ˈrɛzɚɹˌvwɔɪɚɹ]
• written wh is generally pronounced [ʍ]. "Some speakers, however, pronounce all these voiceless sounds voiced, as in whit [wɪt] not distinguished from whit, white [waɪt] not distinguished from wight. Though not vulgarisms, such pronunciations are usually discountenanced by careful speakers and in formal instruction. In standard British speech of the Southern type w and wh are generally both pronounced as [w]."
• whoop, whopping-cough is pronounced [huːp(ɪŋ)]

and that's the last of the phoneme entries in the book! after that is exercises and transcriptions, which i'm probably not going to post

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:53 pm he lists the vowel of hoof as [uː]

[…]

whoop, whopping-cough is pronounced [huːp(ɪŋ)]

Are these unusual in modern American English?

we have /hʊf/ and /wʊp/ (maybe sometimes /wup/ but never /hup/)

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:53 pm[fθ] sometimes becomes [pθ] in words like diphthong, diphtheria, naphtha

So I wasn’t crazy!

/wʊp/ exists dialectally as a separate word sometimes spelled whup (which absolutely cannot start with /h/); for whoop my first guess would be [wu:p] except in e.g. whoop-ass. Wiktionary doesn't list /wʊp/ for /hu:p ~ wu:p/.

fθ > pθ is very common. The plural of hoof is hooves, but scarf can go either way (I *think* I say scarves), as can words ending in -ð; -ðz is a difficult cluster and often replaced with -θs. Clothes and close are homophones; I've met a few people who found this distasteful and insisted upon clothing, in one case because "clothes ought to be pronounced as it's spelled but it's hard".

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 2:46 am fθ > pθ is very common. The plural of hoof is hooves, but scarf can go either way (I *think* I say scarves), as can words ending in -ð; -ðz is a difficult cluster and often replaced with -θs. Clothes and close are homophones; I've met a few people who found this distasteful and insisted upon clothing, in one case because "clothes ought to be pronounced as it's spelled but it's hard".

For me I have [fs] in scarves and [θs] in breathes in isolation but there is a big but here - for me these are underlying /vz/ and /ðz/ as the preceding vowel is long and they can voice if the next word starts with a vowel. As for clothes, for me this has [s], underlying /z/ (preceding long vowel, voices before another vowel), and pronouncing it with [θs], underlying /ðz/, is a clear spelling pronunciation to me.

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:01 am we have /hʊf/ and /wʊp/ (maybe sometimes /wup/ but never /hup/)

Initial /h/ is certainly usual in whooping cough in my BrE experience.

I have /vz/ in the plurals of both hoof and scarf. The one which confuses me is roof: it feels slightly "off" with /fs/ but the spelling rooves looks wrong, so I probably write roofs but pronounce it with /vz/.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:17 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:01 am we have /hʊf/ and /wʊp/ (maybe sometimes /wup/ but never /hup/)

Initial /h/ is certainly usual in whooping cough in my BrE experience.

In the varieties here in southeastern Wisconsin it is always /wʊp/ing cough.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:17 pm I have /vz/ in the plurals of both hoof and scarf. The one which confuses me is roof: it feels slightly "off" with /fs/ but the spelling rooves looks wrong, so I probably write roofs but pronounce it with /vz/.

I am in free variation between /vz/ and /fs/ in roofs (likewise the spelling rooves looks strange to me), and these differ only in vowel length unless preceding a vowel.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:07 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:17 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:01 am we have /hʊf/ and /wʊp/ (maybe sometimes /wup/ but never /hup/)

Initial /h/ is certainly usual in whooping cough in my BrE experience.

In the varieties here in southeastern Wisconsin it is always /wʊp/ing cough.

I'm kind of surprised you guys say "whooping cough" at all— I don't think I've ever heard it said out loud.

FWIW the American Heritage Dictionary (i.e. the one on my shelf) has /hup/ as the first pronunciation for "whoop". I can't say I hear that much either. But the exclamation "whoops!" is [wʊps] for me, but "oops!" is [ups]. I can't say reversing the vowels would sound bad, though.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:39 pm FWIW the American Heritage Dictionary (i.e. the one on my shelf) has /hup/ as the first pronunciation for "whoop". I can't say I hear that much either. But the exclamation "whoops!" is [wʊps] for me, but "oops!" is [ups]. I can't say reversing the vowels would sound bad, though.

For me whoop is /wʊp/ and, like you, whoops is /wʊps/ while oops is /ups/.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:39 pm I'm kind of surprised you guys say "whooping cough" at all— I don't think I've ever heard it said out loud.

It’s not a common word, certainly, but there’s occasions where it comes up (e.g. if you have any kind of exposure to small children).

For my intuition about my own ‘lect, <wh> is pronounced as [hw].

@zompist and anyone else who’s never heard “whooping cough” said out loud, what did your local ‘lect call that disease?
“Pertussis”, perchance? Or, maybe, 100-day cough?

i think i've heard it said out loud once, maybe twice in my entire life. no one talks about it, it's not like the flu or something where everyone gets it, or even the measles where everyone used to get it in my parents' time. everyone gets a vaccine for it as a child, so maybe parents might hear their pediatricians mention it, but i don't have kids, so

Here in the Land (Northeast Ohio), we have [w] in “whooping cough”. It does appear, often thanks to doctors and news broadcasts.

TomHChappell wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:28 pm @zompist and anyone else who’s never heard “whooping cough” said out loud, what did your local ‘lect call that disease?
“Pertussis”, perchance? Or, maybe, 100-day cough?

Nothing— I never heard of anyone getting it. This graph probably explains why. I know the term of course.

There's been a vaccine since the 1940s, so I expect I got a shot for it. But kids were not closely informed on what the needles were for.