Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:21 am**

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm How do you guys refer to the left or right buttock specifically?

It would depend on the context.

I guess the term "cheek" (and ass cheek) exists but it's very informal, probably vulgar.

"Ass" in the sense of "gluteus, buttocks" is usually perceived as both those things in the United States; elsewhere in the English-speaking world, the form tends to be arse (Chaucer often spelled it ers). On its own, "cheek" can be ambiguous, but isn't vulgar; "butt cheeks" is what I would expect a child to call them while maybe feeling slightly naughty.

What would you say in a more formal way? Is that the one use you guys might have for "buttock"?

The body part itself is probably not perceived as the most proper subjects of discussion, but if I needed to refer to that part of the body in formal language, I would use right buttock or left buttock for one of them, or buttocks for the whole apparatus. If I were feeling flowery, I might also coin some nonce description that would have clear meaning from context, but not be in general use (when writing fiction, I tend to do this for things that have names in English derived from real-world figures or places, like replacing sandwich with breadstack).

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:15 am**

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:21 am
Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm How do you guys refer to the left or right buttock specifically?
It would depend on the context.

I guess the term "cheek" (and ass cheek) exists but it's very informal, probably vulgar.
"Ass" in the sense of "gluteus, buttocks" is usually perceived as both those things in the United States; elsewhere in the English-speaking world, the form tends to be arse (Chaucer often spelled it ers). On its own, "cheek" can be ambiguous, but isn't vulgar; "butt cheeks" is what I would expect a child to call them while maybe feeling slightly naughty.

What would you say in a more formal way? Is that the one use you guys might have for "buttock"?
The body part itself is probably not perceived as the most proper subjects of discussion, but if I needed to refer to that part of the body in formal language, I would use right buttock or left buttock for one of them, or buttocks for the whole apparatus. If I were feeling flowery, I might also coin some nonce description that would have clear meaning from context, but not be in general use (when writing fiction, I tend to do this for things that have names in English derived from real-world figures or places, like replacing sandwich with breadstack).

"Ass" is considered really vulgar, "bottom" and "rear end" are most polite, and "butt" is in the middle (not as vulgar as "ass", but not as polite as "bottom" or "rear end")

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:18 am**

Space60 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:15 am "Ass" is considered really vulgar, "bottom" and "rear end" are most polite, and "butt" is in the middle (not as vulgar as "ass", but not as polite as "bottom" or "rear end")

I would agree, except I would not say that ass is really vulgar, as there are many things far more vulgar than it.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:42 pm**

Is there any dialect in which 'ore oar or awe' is pronounced [ɔː ɔː ɔː ɔː]?

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:20 pm**

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:42 pm Is there any dialect in which 'ore oar or awe' is pronounced [ɔː ɔː ɔː ɔː]?

Southern U.S. nonrhotic accents (which are nearly extinct) lacked a linking /r/, but they also lacked the horse-hoarse merger and so all four of those words did not sound the same.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:36 pm**

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:42 pm Is there any dialect in which 'ore oar or awe' is pronounced [ɔː ɔː ɔː ɔː]?

Alternatively, if you are not asking about liaison, the four words are widely homophonous, but 'or' usually lacks stress.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:39 pm**

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:42 pm Is there any dialect in which 'ore oar or awe' is pronounced [ɔː ɔː ɔː ɔː]?

In my dialect, they're /ʊː ʊː ʊː ʊː/. Actually, if I said them in a row they'd be [ʊːɻ ʊːɻ ʊːɻ ʊː], but they're still the same phoneme(s). That's Australian english btw.

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:13 pm**

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:42 pm Is there any dialect in which 'ore oar or awe' is pronounced [ɔː ɔː ɔː ɔː]?

This is very nearly the case for me, though I’d transcribe the vowel as [o̞ː] instead. As with Darren, there’s likely to be a linking rhotic, and additionally or is less stressed and hence reduced: [o̞ːɻʷ‿o̞ːɻʷ‿ɵɻʷ‿o̞ː].

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:24 pm**

Do any of you have two different forms for or varying by stress? For instance, while when speaking normally I commonly pronounce or as [ʁ̩ˤ(ː)] I also readily pronounce it as a stressed [ɔ(ː)ʁˤ]

Posted: **Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:04 pm**

I have stressed [ɔː(ə)ɹ], unstreassed [əɹ] or simply [ɹ].

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:36 am**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:24 pm Do any of you have two different forms for or varying by stress?

Yes, and I'd be a bit surprised if anyone didn't. There are a handful of words with weak and strong forms where I've more or less lost the strong form (but is usually /bət/ for me, even stressed) but or isn't one of them.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:58 am**

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:39 pmIn my dialect, they're /ʊː ʊː ʊː ʊː/. Actually, if I said them in a row they'd be [ʊːɻ ʊːɻ ʊːɻ ʊː], but they're still the same phoneme(s). That's Australian english btw.

Interesting, didn't know Australian had its /o/ that high. Must pay attention the next time I watch Bondai Beach :D.

JAL

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:50 am**

jal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:58 am
Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:39 pmIn my dialect, they're /ʊː ʊː ʊː ʊː/. Actually, if I said them in a row they'd be [ʊːɻ ʊːɻ ʊːɻ ʊː], but they're still the same phoneme(s). That's Australian english btw.
Interesting, didn't know Australian had its /o/ that high. Must pay attention the next time I watch Bondai Beach .

I (a fellow Australian) can’t recall ever having heard /o/ realised as [ʊ]. I realise that sound as mid [o̞ː].

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:25 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:50 amI (a fellow Australian) can’t recall ever having heard /o/ realised as [ʊ]. I realise that sound as mid [o̞ː].

Yeah, that sounds more like I envision Australian.

JAL

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:43 am**

Maybe it's a south australian thing. For me it's almost exactly the same vowel quality as PUT (maybe a touch more backed). I think it's probably something to do with a) goose being fronted and leaving a hole in the high back area and b) maybe influence from CURE in the THOUGHT/NORTH/FORCE/CURE merger.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:55 am**

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:43 am b) maybe influence from CURE in the THOUGHT/NORTH/FORCE/CURE merger.

Interesting… I merge THOUGHT/NORTH/FORCE but not CURE (which is [cʰjʊə] for me), so that may be it.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:19 pm**

I just realized I had another anomalous geminate in Kyoto, as [ˌcʰjɵʔtˈtʰɵ(ː)], in addition to buttocks [b̥əʔtˈtʰaʔksʲ] and pizza [ˈpʰiʔtˌtsʰə(ː)], which I simply cannot explain. It is not like my cluster reduction geminates such as in vodka [ˈvaːkːə(ː)] or hadn't [ˈ(h)ɛːnː(ʔ)] which can be easily explained away.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:50 pm**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:19 pm I just realized I had another anomalous geminate in Kyoto, as [ˌcʰjɵʔtˈtʰɵ(ː)],

I think I may geminate medial /t/ when I'm making an effort not to flap it (as I sometimes do when pronouncing foreign names).

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:04 pm**

Fun fact I just noticed about myself:

I also have to consciously override my colonial weakness of t-flapping, usually by inserting ordinary /t/, which follows normal rules of allophonic aspiration. The funny thing is, when I'm speaking very quickly and naturally, sometimes the flapping re-asserts itself anyway, but the aspiration of that inserted /t/ remains, creating something like /4_h/. So apparently, my subconscious thinks that aspiration is an acceptable shorthand for the presence of an unflapped plosive.

Posted: **Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:49 pm**

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:04 pm Fun fact I just noticed about myself:

I also have to consciously override my colonial weakness of t-flapping, usually by inserting ordinary /t/, which follows normal rules of allophonic aspiration. The funny thing is, when I'm speaking very quickly and naturally, sometimes the flapping re-asserts itself anyway, but the aspiration of that inserted /t/ remains, creating something like /4_h/. So apparently, my subconscious thinks that aspiration is an acceptable shorthand for the presence of an unflapped plosive.

I sometimes will devoice my flapped /t/ when speaking carefully, to emphasize its /t/-ness, as if the preceding short vowel isn't enough.

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