Zompist Bboard Again

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:26 pm Does a Papal election count as one in a “various countr[y]” for the purpose of this thread? On the one hand, I don't see what other thread would fit, but on the other, the countrihood of the Vatican City is delightfully ambiguous¹.

Well, if Vatican City wouldn't be a country, it would clearly be a part of Italy. And the problem with seeing it as a part of Italy is that Italy itself legally doesn't see it as a part of Italy.

Anyway, now that we're talking Papal elections, and now that Pope Francis is gone, I have to ask: How on Earth did his own election ever happen? I mean, OK, he wasn't nearly as progressive as some people have made him out to be, but by the standards of the Catholic hierarchy, he was still apparently quite reform-oriented. And somehow, he got himself elected by a conclave that consisted entirely of Cardinals who had been created by John Paul II or Benedict XVI. How did that happen?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:58 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:26 pm Does a Papal election count as one in a “various countr[y]” for the purpose of this thread? On the one hand, I don't see what other thread would fit, but on the other, the countrihood of the Vatican City is delightfully ambiguous¹.

Well, if Vatican City wouldn't be a country, it would clearly be a part of Italy. And the problem with seeing it as a part of Italy is that Italy itself legally doesn't see it as a part of Italy.

To me saying that the Vatican City is party of Italy is like saying that Monaco is part of France or San Marino is part of Italy -- i.e. legally a falsehood, even though it may be one that the ignorant may not be aware of being such.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:58 am Anyway, now that we're talking Papal elections, and now that Pope Francis is gone, I have to ask: How on Earth did his own election ever happen? I mean, OK, he wasn't nearly as progressive as some people have made him out to be, but by the standards of the Catholic hierarchy, he was still apparently quite reform-oriented. And somehow, he got himself elected by a conclave that consisted entirely of Cardinals who had been created by John Paul II or Benedict XVI. How did that happen?

I've thought similar things myself. Of course, that also means that it will be hard to guess whom the next pope will be, since even though a very good portion of the cardinals electing the next pope have been created by Pope Francis, if the cardinals who were created by John Paul II or Benedict XVI ended up electing Francis, that means there are no guarantees at all as to whom the current cardinals including those created by Francis will elect.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 9:58 am Anyway, now that we're talking Papal elections, and now that Pope Francis is gone, I have to ask: How on Earth did his own election ever happen? I mean, OK, he wasn't nearly as progressive as some people have made him out to be, but by the standards of the Catholic hierarchy, he was still apparently quite reform-oriented. And somehow, he got himself elected by a conclave that consisted entirely of Cardinals who had been created by John Paul II or Benedict XVI. How did that happen?

My working theory¹ is that in 2013, enough cardinals saw the image of the church as a problem, so they chose someone who was known to be charismatic and likeable, in the hope his charisma and likeability would somehow clean up the image of the church without making any major changes, and accidentally got structural change as part of the choice.

¹ I am not a cardinal, or a Catholic, or even in a particularly Catholic country, and this is just semi-serious guessing; please don't take it as anything more

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Apr 22, 2025 10:22 am Of course, that also means that it will be hard to guess whom the next pope will be, since even though a very good portion of the cardinals electing the next pope have been created by Pope Francis, if the cardinals who were created by John Paul II or Benedict XVI ended up electing Francis, that means there are no guarantees at all as to whom the current cardinals including those created by Francis will elect.

Agreed. That is, one thing I've been somewhat sure about ever since I seriously thought about it during the 2005 conclave is that Italian cardinals are probably at a disadvantage these days, because all the non-Italian cardinals might worry that if they elect another Italian Pope, it'll be another 400 years until the next non-Italian Pope. Then again, Francis himself was of recent Italian ancestry.