Zompist Bboard Again

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:17 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:56 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:00 am

Actually, another example that comes to mind, now that I think of it, is in vice as in vice versa, which can be either /ˈvaɪsəˌvɜrsə/ or /ˈvaɪsˌvɜrsə/.

Oh, yes, I'd forgotten that one.

Also "genre".

And we have another.

All of these are somehow "foreign", incidentally, and "genre" is phonotactically odd for an English word. Laude does feel like it could be an English word (it would probably be orthographically lowda or lowdah, though), but probably not one of Old English origin.

How do you guys pronounce mutual, and in particular, do you pronounce it trisyllabically or bisyllabically?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:47 am How do you guys pronounce mutual, and in particular, do you pronounce it trisyllabically or bisyllabically?

"Mutual" is ['mjuʊ.tʃuʊ.wəɫ~'mjuʊ.tʃuʊɫ] in free variation, but I tend to have some preference for the disyllabic form when speaking. Similarly, "Mutually" is usually [mjuʊ.tʃuʊ.liː~mjuʊ.tʃuʊ.lɪ], but could be tetrasyllabic [mjuʊ.tʃuʊ.wə.liː~mjuʊ.tʃuʊ.wə.lɪ] if I were speaking very carefully. In all cases, where present, the [w] is weakly-articulated.

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:17 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:56 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:00 am

Actually, another example that comes to mind, now that I think of it, is in vice as in vice versa, which can be either /ˈvaɪsəˌvɜrsə/ or /ˈvaɪsˌvɜrsə/.

Oh, yes, I'd forgotten that one.

Also "genre".

I would routinely pronounce it that way in words and names from German, e.g. schadenfreude.

I would almost certainly mispronounce the Wisconsin and Missouri German-origin names Travis and Linguoboy refer to on first sight. Are they pronounced that way because that was how they were pronounced in the relevant German dialects or is it because when they were anglicised the relevant English dialects didn't actually have final schwa?

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:14 pm I would routinely pronounce it that way in words and names from German, e.g. schadenfreude.

I would almost certainly mispronounce the Wisconsin and Missouri German-origin names Travis and Linguoboy refer to on first sight. Are they pronounced that way because that was how they were pronounced in the relevant German dialects or is it because when they were anglicised the relevant English dialects didn't actually have final schwa?

It is almost certainly due to anglicization. Note that that there are some specific ways German names are anglicized, e.g. <oe> traditionally maps to either /ɛ/ or /eɪ/ depending on whether it was short or long in the original German, and in the past at least <ue> traditionally mapped to either /ɪ/ or /i/ in a similar fashion (but this is falling out of use, being replaced with pronouncing <ue> with /ju/).

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:14 pm I would routinely pronounce it that way in words and names from German, e.g. schadenfreude.

I wouldn't be surprised if, after a few generations, that ended up with a spelling pronunciation.

I would almost certainly mispronounce the Wisconsin and Missouri German-origin names Travis and Linguoboy refer to on first sight. Are they pronounced that way because that was how they were pronounced in the relevant German dialects or is it because when they were anglicised the relevant English dialects didn't actually have final schwa?

I think it's possibly, at least in part, the result of some North American dialects developing the happy vowel in place of the schwa. I'm not sure if it was a total merger, or if it only affected a few words. Most of the eye-dialect examples I can think of are Latinate or Romance borrowings — extry, opry, baloney. You also sometimes hear what I would spell as tooney-fish in eye-dialect, though I've never seen this one actually given a pronunciation-spelling. Loony or looney, from lunatic, may also be connected with this, probably reinforced by the adjectival -y. Borrowing foreign /a/ as /iː/ does also notably occur when there's a hiatus immediately following (as Israel, karaoke).

I've also encountered the Dutch name Rijkse pronounced /raiskɪ/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:32 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:14 pm I would routinely pronounce it that way in words and names from German, e.g. schadenfreude.

I would almost certainly mispronounce the Wisconsin and Missouri German-origin names Travis and Linguoboy refer to on first sight. Are they pronounced that way because that was how they were pronounced in the relevant German dialects or is it because when they were anglicised the relevant English dialects didn't actually have final schwa?

It is almost certainly due to anglicization. Note that that there are some specific ways German names are anglicized, e.g. <oe> traditionally maps to either /ɛ/ or /eɪ/ depending on whether it was short or long in the original German, and in the past at least <ue> traditionally mapped to either /ɪ/ or /i/ in a similar fashion (but this is falling out of use, being replaced with pronouncing <ue> with /ju/).

Though the umlauted vowels are quite often unrounded in German dialects, which would make those the natural anglicisations.

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:15 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:32 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:14 pm I would routinely pronounce it that way in words and names from German, e.g. schadenfreude.

I would almost certainly mispronounce the Wisconsin and Missouri German-origin names Travis and Linguoboy refer to on first sight. Are they pronounced that way because that was how they were pronounced in the relevant German dialects or is it because when they were anglicised the relevant English dialects didn't actually have final schwa?

It is almost certainly due to anglicization. Note that that there are some specific ways German names are anglicized, e.g. <oe> traditionally maps to either /ɛ/ or /eɪ/ depending on whether it was short or long in the original German, and in the past at least <ue> traditionally mapped to either /ɪ/ or /i/ in a similar fashion (but this is falling out of use, being replaced with pronouncing <ue> with /ju/).

Though the umlauted vowels are quite often unrounded in German dialects, which would make those the natural anglicisations.

In some names here, <eu> is pronounced /aɪ/~/əɪ/, reflecting dialectal German pronunciations.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:47 am How do you guys pronounce mutual, and in particular, do you pronounce it trisyllabically or bisyllabically?

Bisyllabically: /ˈmjuːtʃəl/.

I have both trisyllabic and bisyllabic pronunciations of mutual, i.e. /ˈmjutʃuwəl/ [ˈmjytɕʉːwʊ(ː)] and /ˈmjutʃwəl/ [ˈmjytɕwʊ(ː)], favoring the latter except when speaking markedly carefully. For mutually, I drop the /u/ and /w/ and pronounce it as /ˈmjutʃəlli/ [ˈmjytʃɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:21 pmIn some names here, <eu> is pronounced /aɪ/~/əɪ/, reflecting dialectal German pronunciations.

For instance, the St Louis-based company Anheuser-Busch, brewers of Budweiser, Michelob, and Bass Pale Ale (among many other brands), is /ˈænhaɪ̯zər ˈbʊʃ/. (Anheuser was from Bad Kreuznach in the Palatinate, where unrounding is the rule in the local speech varieties.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:46 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:21 pmIn some names here, <eu> is pronounced /aɪ/~/əɪ/, reflecting dialectal German pronunciations.

For instance, the St Louis-based company Anheuser-Busch, brewers of Budweiser, Michelob, and Bass Pale Ale (among many other brands), is /ˈænhaɪ̯zər ˈbʊʃ/. (Anheuser was from Bad Kreuznach in the Palatinate, where unrounding is the rule in the local speech varieties.)

In Milwaukee there is a street named Teutonia Ave., and here Teutonia is pronounced /təɪˈtoʊnjə/.

How do you pronounce "mathematics", "mathematical", and "mathematician"?

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:23 pm How do you pronounce "mathematics", "mathematical", and "mathematician"?

mathematics /ˈmæθəˌmætəks/ [ˈmɛθə̃ːˌmɛɾɘʔksʲ]~[ˈmɛθm̩ːˌmɛɾɘʔksʲ]~[ˈmɛθˌmɛɾɘʔksʲ]
mathematical /ˈmæθəˌmætəkəl/ [ˈmɛθə̃ːˌmɛɾɘkɯ(ː)]~[ˈmɛθm̩ːˌmɛɾɘkɯ(ː)~[ˈmɛθˌmɛɾɘkɯ(ː)]
mathematician /ˌmæθəməˈtɪʃən/ [ˌmɛθə̃ːmɘˈtʰɘʃɘ̃(ː)n]~[ˌmɛθm̩ːmɘˈtʰɘʃn̩(ː)]~[ˌmɛθmɘˈtʰɘʃn̩(ː)]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:00 am Actually, another example that comes to mind, now that I think of it, is in vice as in vice versa, which can be either /ˈvaɪsəˌvɜrsə/ or /ˈvaɪsˌvɜrsə/.

In French it's /vise vɛrsa/, ironically one of the few cases of final -e being pronounced /e/ without an acute accent.

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:23 pm How do you pronounce "mathematics", "mathematical", and "mathematician"?

[ˌmæθəˈmæɾɘks]
[ˌmæθəˈmæɾɘkʰʊː]
[ˌmæθə̆məˈtˢɪʃən]

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:23 pm How do you pronounce "mathematics", "mathematical", and "mathematician"?

mathematics : ['mæ.θəˌmæ.dɨk̚s̺] (careful), ['mæθˌmæ.dɨk̚s̺] (fast speech)
mathematicial : [ˌmæ.θə'mæ.dɨ.kʰəɫ] (careful), [ˌmæθ'mæ.dɨ.kʰəɫ] (fast speech)
mathematician : [ˌmæ.θə.mə.tʰɪ.ʃə̃n] (extremely careful), [ˌmæθ.mə.tʰɪ.ʃə̃n] (normal)

Prompted a bit by the Luhansk/Lugansk thread, how do you pronounce "Kyiv"/"Kiev" (or whatever your languages' name for the city is)?

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:41 am Prompted a bit by the Luhansk/Lugansk thread, how do you pronounce "Kyiv"/"Kiev" (or whatever your languages' name for the city is)?

Kyiv : [c͡çʰjiːɪv]
Kiev : [cʰi'jɛːv]

Kyiv: /kjɪv/ [cʰjɘːf]
Kiev: /kiˈɛv/ [cʰiːˈɜːf]