Zompist Bboard Again

mae wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:38 pm I found something pretty spectacular today. The Austronesian language Bonggo has erkua(t) as its numeral 'two'. And the path of sound change is the following: PMP *duha > *dua > POc *rua > *ruwa > *rukwa-t > *rkwat > erkuat. How's that for a convergent development? The same correspondence in Armenian is historically quite controversial (altho now generally accepted) but here it pretty much happened exactly the same modulo a suffix.

mae wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:38 pm I found something pretty spectacular today. The Austronesian language Bonggo has erkua(t) as its numeral 'two'. And the path of sound change is the following: PMP *duha > *dua > POc *rua > *ruwa > *rukwa-t > *rkwat > erkuat. How's that for a convergent development? The same correspondence in Armenian is historically quite controversial (altho now generally accepted) but here it pretty much happened exactly the same modulo a suffix.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:24 pm Does anyone have a reference to the assumed order of sound changes from Old Japanese to current times? If not, OJ to any later stage of would be extremely helpful, as long as they have at least a general idea of when the changes occurred.

I've found a few mentions of when specific sound changes have happened (like that OJ /p/ became /w, ∅/ intervocalically likely before 1000ad), but I know there are a fair number I haven't been able to account for, let alone a list of them in one place. It would be nice if there is a resource out there so I don't have to collect them myself. But if there isn't (or it's extremely hard to find), it would be equally nice to know so I can continue collecting things in one spot myself without being on a wild goose chase.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:09 am Well, a lot of this stuff is easy to find, but as you say it's scattered about. I have a few articles on this topic that I can summarize if I find the time.

I tried to recreate the table presented in the book:

{FUNDAMENTET}
┌──────────────────────────┬─────┬────────┬──────────────┬───────┬───────────┬──────────┐
│subjekt eller adverbial   │finit│subjekt¹│satsadverbial²│infinit│komplement³│adverbial⁴│
│eller nästan vad som helst│verb │        │              │verb   │           │          │
├──────────────────────────┼─────┼────────┼──────────────┼───────┼───────────┼──────────┤
│I kväll                   │ska  │vi      │nog           │se     │           │på Melodi-│
│                          │     │        │              │       │           │festivalen│
└──────────────────────────┴─────┴────────┴──────────────┴───────┴───────────┴──────────┘
¹såvida det inte stod på den första platsen
²t.ex. "inte", "kanske" och "nog"
³t.ex. objekt
⁴t.ex. tid, plats eller orsak

And this is my translation of the above:
{THE FOUNDATION}
┌─────────────────────┬──────┬────────┬─────────────────┬────────┬───────────┬──────────┐
│subject or adverbial │finite│subject¹│clause adverbial²│infinite│complement³│adverbial⁴│
│or almost anything   │verb  │        │                 │verb    │           │          │
├─────────────────────┼──────┼────────┼─────────────────┼────────┼───────────┼──────────┤
│Tonight              │shall │we      │probably         │watch   │           │on Melodi-│
│                     │      │        │                 │        │           │festivalen│
├─────────────────────┴──────┴────────┴─────────────────┴────────┴───────────┴──────────┤
│/Tonight we are probably going to watch Melodifestivalen⁵/                             │
└───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
¹unless it stood on the first position
²e.g. "not", "maybe" or "probably"
³e.g. object
⁴e.g. time, place or reason
⁵the Swedish national selection for the Eurovision Song Contest

• Could one say that the word order in Swedish is actually VSO?
• What is a "clause adverbial" and how is it different from other adverbials?
• Why is "på Melodifestivalen" an adverbial and not a complement? It begins with a preposition, but I don't see why that matters.
• I think that subordinate clauses can also go into slot 1.

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:17 pmCould one say that the word order in Swedish is actually VSO?

What is a "clause adverbial" and how is it different from other adverbials?

Why is "på Melodifestivalen" an adverbial and not a complement? It begins with a preposition, but I don't see why that matters.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:42 pm 5 unrelated foods with the name "pepper":

1) sprinkled pepper
2) the cayenne pepper family (jalapeño, habanero, bell peppers, etc)
3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppercorn_tree
4) pepperoni
5) peppermint (not really a food, but an additive and quite a flavorful one)

linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:24 pm Does anyone have a reference to the assumed order of sound changes from Old Japanese to current times? If not, OJ to any later stage of would be extremely helpful, as long as they have at least a general idea of when the changes occurred.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:02 pm I dunno, thats interesting .... what about a third sentence, "i used a new word today, ambulance, derived from the Latin". i would find that acceptable. so... is Latin still an adjective there, with an omitted noun phrase, or is "Latin" promoted to a noun?

Max1461 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:04 pm

linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:24 pm Does anyone have a reference to the assumed order of sound changes from Old Japanese to current times? If not, OJ to any later stage of would be extremely helpful, as long as they have at least a general idea of when the changes occurred.

IIRC A History of the Japanese Language by Bjarke Frellesvig has something like this.

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:13 pm

Max1461 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:04 pm

linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:24 pm Does anyone have a reference to the assumed order of sound changes from Old Japanese to current times? If not, OJ to any later stage of would be extremely helpful, as long as they have at least a general idea of when the changes occurred.

IIRC A History of the Japanese Language by Bjarke Frellesvig has something like this.

The contents page on the Google preview lists "Summary of the main regular phonemic changes between Old Japanese and conservative Modern Japanese" in the appendix. That sounds good.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:11 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:13 pmThe contents page on the Google preview lists "Summary of the main regular phonemic changes between Old Japanese and conservative Modern Japanese" in the appendix. That sounds good.

More reason for me to buy this or at least find a free online source, if possible. Thanks

Ser wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:46 pm

linguistcat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:11 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:13 pmThe contents page on the Google preview lists "Summary of the main regular phonemic changes between Old Japanese and conservative Modern Japanese" in the appendix. That sounds good.

More reason for me to buy this or at least find a free online source, if possible. Thanks

I have the book, and I'm afraid that summary is likely not what you want, linguistcat... It really only includes the three "main" group of changes, i.e. the ones that get the most discussion: the /i1 i2/ [ i wi] > /i/, /e1 e2/ [je e] > /e/ and /o1 o2/ [wo o] > /o/ changes; the p > w > zero and p > ɸ > h changes; and the diphthong > long monophthong changes. However, the book does include a lot of stuff in the preceding chapters, including developments from Proto-Japonic. It just doesn't present it in a neat table.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:29 am By the way, whats up with yo₂? Do we believe that there really was a labialized version of /yo/? That one has been tough for me to accept.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:17 amA neat table would be excellent but I'd more than happily take one or a small handful of resources that have approximate dates for the sound changes spread out that I could look through. So I'm back to, get that book when feasible and look for other reliable resources as I'm able in the meantime. I mean even wikipedia gives an overview of the types of sound changes that occurred between OJ and EMJ and etc, but it doesn't give a relative order for them or specific centuries in which they occurred, just examples of what happened.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:29 amBy the way, whats up with yo₂? Do we believe that there really was a labialized version of /yo/? That one has been tough for me to accept.