Zompist Bboard Again

Thank you, everyone!

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 8:11 pm
I did simplify a bit. My understanding of the rule is that the punctuation goes inside the quotes when it semantically belongs with the quote, and outside the quotes when it belongs with the surrounding sentence.

Well, that makes the most sense to me, too.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2024 5:44 am I reckon y'all are getting Americanized. Y'all're gonna be writing "honor" and "Americanized" soon.

Locales have hit the latter hard for British usage. British spelling with OED preferences is an infrequent option.

Does anyone else merge metal and medal? I have [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɤ̯] for both of them, whereas I have a contrast between petal [ˈpʰɜɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːɤ̯] and pedal [ˈpʰɜːɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːːɤ̯].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:43 pm Does anyone else merge metal and medal? I have [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɤ̯] for both of them, whereas I have a contrast between petal [ˈpʰɜɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːɤ̯] and pedal [ˈpʰɜːɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːːɤ̯].

I do, but I lose the distinction in all post-stress medials. So I'd merge petal/pedal too, and writer/rider.

Only exception I can think of is before syllabic n: Sutton has [ʔ], sudden has [ɾ].

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:07 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:43 pm Does anyone else merge metal and medal? I have [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɤ̯] for both of them, whereas I have a contrast between petal [ˈpʰɜɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːɤ̯] and pedal [ˈpʰɜːɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːːɤ̯].

I do, but I lose the distinction in all post-stress medials. So I'd merge petal/pedal too, and writer/rider.

Only exception I can think of is before syllabic n: Sutton has [ʔ], sudden has [ɾ].

I presume you don't have American (or Canadian) raising then? (I say that because writer/rider is given as the classic example of a minimal pair kept apart by American and Canadian raising even for those who don't preserve a vowel length contrast before flapped /t/ and /d/.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:43 pm Does anyone else merge metal and medal? I have [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɤ̯] for both of them, whereas I have a contrast between petal [ˈpʰɜɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːɤ̯] and pedal [ˈpʰɜːɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːːɤ̯].

Only in the phrase “pedal to the metal”, due to analogical interference.

I merge metal and medal, petal and pedal, Sutton and sudden. Australian English doesn't have pre-obstruent lengthening of short vowels — only of long (i.e. rhotic) vowels and diphthongs, and even then it's only surface level so writer and rider merge too.

Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:22 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:07 pm I do, but I lose the distinction in all post-stress medials. So I'd merge petal/pedal too, and writer/rider.

I presume you don't have American (or Canadian) raising then? (I say that because writer/rider is given as the classic example of a minimal pair kept apart by American and Canadian raising even for those who don't preserve a vowel length contrast before flapped /t/ and /d/.)

Hard to say. I just listened to the examples on Wikipedia, and to me the writer/rider examples sound the same, though I can clearly hear the bowed/bout difference (and I don't have the raising there).

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:55 pm I merge metal and medal, petal and pedal, Sutton and sudden. Australian English doesn't have pre-obstruent lengthening of short vowels — only of long (i.e. rhotic) vowels and diphthongs, and even then it's only surface level so writer and rider merge too.

Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]

(Emphasis mine.)

When you say that, do you imply that only rhotic vowels are long in AusE? I was under the very strong impression that AusE preserved the classic English phonemic vowel length contrast very well, with it in cases like STRUT versus START/PALM/BATH often being the feature which distinguished them.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:44 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:55 pm I merge metal and medal, petal and pedal, Sutton and sudden. Australian English doesn't have pre-obstruent lengthening of short vowels — only of long (i.e. rhotic) vowels and diphthongs, and even then it's only surface level so writer and rider merge too.

Although I don't have a tap before /l n/, I have [d]; [ˈmedɫ̩ʷ], [ˈsädn̩]

(Emphasis mine.)

When you say that, do you imply that only rhotic vowels are long in AusE? I was under the very strong impression that AusE preserved the classic English phonemic vowel length contrast very well, with it in cases like STRUT versus START/PALM/BATH often being the feature which distinguished them.

Long/short vowel pairs are as follows:

KIT [i] vs. NEAR [ɪː~iː]
FOOT [ʊ] vs. NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE/CURE [ʊː]
DRESS [e̞] vs. SQUARE [eː]
COMMA/LETTER/ROSES [ɜ] vs. NURSE [ɵː]
LAD [æ] vs. BAD [æː]
STRUT [ä] vs. START/PALM/BATH [äː]

The long vowels mostly come from rhotics, and in all cases trigger intrusive /r/ before vowels (with the exception of /æː/, which only occurs pre-consonantally). I call them "rhotic" so there's no confusion with the classic English "long vowels" which are all diphthongs (including RP /iː uː/ → [əi̯ əy̯])

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:49 pm (including RP /iː uː/ → [əi̯ əy̯])

I didn't know the diphthongization of high long vowels was that extreme in AusE.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:17 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:49 pm (including RP /iː uː/ → [əi̯ əy̯])

I didn't know the diphthongization of high long vowels was that extreme in AusE.

Oh yes, it's not quite as divergent your dialect but AusE has its innovative points.

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:38 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:17 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:49 pm (including RP /iː uː/ → [əi̯ əy̯])

I didn't know the diphthongization of high long vowels was that extreme in AusE.

Oh yes, it's not quite as divergent your dialect but AusE has its innovative points.

I can’t remember having heard that much diphthongisation, though I know South Australian is a little distinct in some ways. (Or maybe I just need to listen more carefully.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:51 pmI can’t remember having heard that much diphthongisation, though I know South Australian is a little distinct in some ways. (Or maybe I just need to listen more carefully.)

How would you describe your FLEECE and GOOSE vowels?

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:17 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:51 pmI can’t remember having heard that much diphthongisation, though I know South Australian is a little distinct in some ways. (Or maybe I just need to listen more carefully.)

How would you describe your FLEECE and GOOSE vowels?

[iː] and [ʉː], no obvious diphthongisation at all. (This is one of the ways in which my vowels differ substantially from those of ‘normal‘ Australian English.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:27 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:17 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:51 pmI can’t remember having heard that much diphthongisation, though I know South Australian is a little distinct in some ways. (Or maybe I just need to listen more carefully.)

How would you describe your FLEECE and GOOSE vowels?

[iː] and [ʉː], no obvious diphthongisation at all. (This is one of the ways in which my vowels differ substantially from those of ‘normal‘ Australian English.)

Interesting. I wonder if I mightn't not parse [iː] as NEAR in isolation.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:51 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:38 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:17 pm

I didn't know the diphthongization of high long vowels was that extreme in AusE.

Oh yes, it's not quite as divergent your dialect but AusE has its innovative points.

I can’t remember having heard that much diphthongisation, though I know South Australian is a little distinct in some ways. (Or maybe I just need to listen more carefully.)

When people speak of "diphthongization of high long vowels" I always had thought of them as [ɪj] and [ʊw], i.e. only lightly diphthongized. (I only diphthongize mine when I have /uː/ after a coronal/palatal and before a dorsal, as [yu].)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:37 pm When people speak of "diphthongization of high long vowels" I always had thought of them as [ɪj] and [ʊw], i.e. only lightly diphthongized. (I only diphthongize mine when I have /uː/ after a coronal/palatal and before a dorsal, as [yu].)

There's register-related alternation; careful [ɪi̯ ʊʉ̯] ranging to casual [əi̯ əy̯]. In unstressed syllables (happY) you might find [ɪi̯] or perhaps even [i], but always [əj] before a vowel ([ˌhæpʰəjɜzˈɫʷæɻɪi̯]). "to" and "gonna" both end in [ɜ] in normal unstressed position, but [əw] (or ?[əɻʷ]) before a vowel; likewise "the" is [ðɜ], [ðəj] (but never *[ðɜɻʷ]).

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:38 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:17 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 6:49 pm (including RP /iː uː/ → [əi̯ əy̯])

I didn't know the diphthongization of high long vowels was that extreme in AusE.

Oh yes, it's not quite as divergent your dialect but AusE has its innovative points.

I don't even intuitively think of my dialect as that divergent when compared to, say, Scottish or Irish English. Higher registers of my dialect really aren't that far from GA. (Much of what passes as funny in it ─ e.g. a phonemic split in /aɪ/ and /ɑr/, /t d n nt nd/ elision, final devoicing, vowel quantity allophony, vowel nasality contrasts, a consonant quantity contrast, /bm/ and /dn/ assimilation to long nasals preceded by unnasalized vowels, etc. ─ really is widespread in NAE but people aren't really aware of it, being deluded into thinking that NAE is this idealized GA that everyone is taught it is.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 12:43 pm Does anyone else merge metal and medal? I have [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɤ̯] for both of them, whereas I have a contrast between petal [ˈpʰɜɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːɤ̯] and pedal [ˈpʰɜːɾɯ(ː)]~[ˈpʰɜːːɤ̯].

I merge metal/medal and petal/pedal, but not writer/rider ([ɹʌjɾɚ] vs. [ɹa(ɛ̯)ɾɚ]) or Sutton/sudden ([sʌʔ͡tn̩] vs. [sʌdn̩])