Zompist Bboard Again

Starbeam: I'd say the attitude you describe is only a problem when it's hold up as a model others should emulate. I. e., when someone says "I am conflict-averse, and you should be, too!" When people are only conflict-averse themselves, then the only problem I see with that is that it might lead to bad results for the conflict-averse person themselves, and in that case, it might make more sense to help them become less conflict-averse, rather than attacking them for not having become less conflict-averse yet.

In your initial post, you acknowledged that some people are conflict-averse for psychological reasons, but dismissed them as a fairly small number. I'm not at all sure on that last point.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:52 pm [snip]

Thanks, that makes it much clearer! I do agree that that kind of behaviour is broadly detrimental.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 1:52 pm

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:42 pm Can you clarify what you mean by ""averse to conflict""? That's exactly a phrase I would use to characterise myself, but what you're talking about sounds nothing like me.

I'm curious to what you mean when you call yourself conflict-averse, may you elaborate?

In general, if I'm faced with a potential conflict, I'll seek out conflict-free resolutions before allowing the situation to escalate to conflict. And even when a conflict does arise, I'll try to keep it from escalating further when I can.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:55 am I'd say the attitude you describe is only a problem when it's hold up as a model others should emulate. I. e., when someone says "I am conflict-averse, and you should be, too!" When people are only conflict-averse themselves, then the only problem I see with that is that it might lead to bad results for the conflict-averse person themselves, and in that case, it might make more sense to help them become less conflict-averse, rather than attacking them for not having become less conflict-averse yet.

Yeah, it's understandable if they get it's a flaw, even a justifiable one. I understand they know it's a them problem, not somebody trying to prescribe social rules of a community or the world at large. Hell, even if they don't wanna change or have issue with the flaw on them, i wouldn't worry. Again, it's from society more broadly that's the issue.

In your initial post, you acknowledged that some people are conflict-averse for psychological reasons, but dismissed them as a fairly small number. I'm not at all sure on that last point.

Well, most people deprecate conflict, and this lasts far past the internet or any cosmopolitan environment IME. There is no way a society that privileges mental stability and lack a of mental illnesses bases its values on things some mentally ill people might do, without even benefitting them with it. Most people are "conflict averse" because they want a circlejerk wherever they go, or assume literally every criticism is a personal insult unbefitting of their majesty. A lot of "no, i am the boss; because i said so" and "just stop harshing our vibes jeez" commands out there.

I know most people have a mental illness, maybe even one signifcantly affecting their lives. There's differences between what they basically force you to do, and nobody has all of them (i wish).

KathTheDragon wrote: In general, if I'm faced with a potential conflict, I'll seek out conflict-free resolutions before allowing the situation to escalate to conflict. And even when a conflict does arise, I'll try to keep it from escalating further when I can.

The first part does bug me, but the second absolutely does not and is very much reasonable. Obviously, if you can't handle starting or being reasonable during a conflict, i don't blame you as long as you don't prescribe it. The first part bugs me because of the whole "people assuming conflict=attack" thing i brought up, but i honestly don't know enough of your thoughts.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:37 amThe first part does bug me, but the second absolutely does not and is very much reasonable. Obviously, if you can't handle starting or being reasonable during a conflict, i don't blame you as long as you don't prescribe it. The first part bugs me because of the whole "people assuming conflict=attack" thing i brought up, but i honestly don't know enough of your thoughts.

Well, if the conflict is as simple as "we disagree on what to have for lunch" there obviously isn't going to be a conflict-free resolution, so then it has to go to "how do we resolve this without it escalating". This is not a problem for me, and I will absolutely not acquiesce just to avoid the disagreement. That is not a real resolution; the conflict has simply been deferred. But if, say, I'm dragged into an already-heated argument, I will immediately try to stop the arguing and start looking for ways to circumvent the issue at hand, because half the time they're arguing about a nothing-issue. That's what I mean by finding a conflict-free resolution. If there is a genuine conflict, then so be it, but I want to be sure of that first.

Okay, in that regard it becomes more of a lexical issue that i didn't consider. I don't necessarily consider all arguments/ conflicts/ etc. to be serious problems or even anything to worry about at all. But obviously, nothing really gets done (with people i respect anyway) when shit gets heated, so i also avoid that unless it's absolutely impossible.

It would be really nice if some of the people close to me in real life would finally learn that I can't read their minds, so if they already know something, and want me to know it as well, they have to tell me about it.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 6:36 am It would be really nice if some of the people close to me in real life would finally learn that I can't read their minds, so if they already know something, and want me to know it as well, they have to tell me about it.

Fucking this. Crybully disease at its finest. Also, i wish people would stop treating obvious as a factual or relevant meaning of an argument. Misreading others is a moral fault if it's only on purpose.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:12 pmAlso, i wish people would stop treating obvious as a factual or relevant meaning of an argument.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but, for the record, the word "obvious" is one of my pet peeves. Often, what people are saying when they call a claim "obvious" is basically that they really really want everyone to agree with the claim, but they can't really think of any good reasons for agreeing with the claim. If they could, they would list those reasons, instead of resorting to calling the claim "obvious".

Mostly the same deal with the word "absurd", except in reverse.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:57 pmI'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but, for the record, the word "obvious" is one of my pet peeves. Often, what people are saying when they call a claim "obvious" is basically that they really really want everyone to agree with the claim, but they can't really think of any good reasons for agreeing with the claim. If they could, they would list those reasons, instead of resorting to calling the claim "obvious".

Mostly the same deal with the word "absurd", except in reverse.

To clarify, i meant "[...]relevant to an argument", like everyone has the same gages of sense and somebody deviating is any form of offense. And yeah, everyone should elaborate on their gripes of it's meant to be a confrontation. No ">_< it hurt to even say" shit in tandem, too.

I spent a portion of this week in a "leadership program" (LP). Now, my job is not extremely demanding, it doesn't usually require much effort to get through any of the tasks I have, and I will always value that. However, this can be attributed to the fact that there are clear and concise instructions for how/when/why to do 99% of everything. This LP has changed the instructions more than 4 times, added multiple tasks, reshuffled priorities, and required us to reach out to senior folks in our organization for assistance, and now we have to backtrack, making us look ill-equipped and disorganized.

Before anyone suggests that these things seem 'designed' to encourage ""leadership"", please know that this is the newest version of this program...just recently updated, and that all of this nonsense is in pursuit of a 5 minute presentation. Yep...months of half-assed instructions and piecemeal information that conflicts without clear explanation of desired results for a fucking 5 minute power-point presentation.

There is nothing about this program that teaches leadership.

Oh, and every minute that we are in these LP sessions is essentially another hour of work because all of us are still expected to perform our normal tasks no matter how backed-up they may be.

It's a damn shit show.

masako wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:52 am I spent a portion of this week in a "leadership program" (LP).

[...]

There is nothing about this program that teaches leadership.

Oh, and every minute that we are in these LP sessions is essentially another hour of work because all of us are still expected to perform our normal tasks no matter how backed-up they may be.

It's a damn shit show.

Commiserations, masako.

Serious question: How aware do you think your fellow participants are that it's a pointless shit show?

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 2:24 pm Serious question: How aware do you think your fellow participants are that it's a pointless shit show?

The members of my immediate "team" seem fully aware as we all mention it on occasion. The wider "class", or group, well...unfortunately some folks seem either eager to garner any/some social/political/career capital that they will nod and applaud almost any idea from HQ. A few seem to honestly value the 'things they're learning', and others seem to be just plodding along until it's over. I'd say at least a quarter of us are jaded and cynical about all of this, and another 25% just want to get it over with...the other half, who knows...they seem duped.

Some of my consternation is because I loathe wasting time, and much of this seems to be just that; a way to pass the time until the next payday, but also because I very much dislike being just another ""consumer"". I have zero appreciation for someone trying to sell me on what leadership "means" when we could actually be accomplishing real goals within our departments and learn about it as we achieve tangible, realistic, and practical goals. This woowoo half-hearted BS about a presentation - as far as I can tell - will only benefit the most senior leaders within my organization as they can claim some new project or idea as theirs when in fact, it was developed by one of our teams in this program. Sure, they'll change a few things around, or wait until enough time has passed so that it seems like they had time to come-up with it in their own, but everyone will already know...we'll know.

Thank you. I had asked because I wasn't sure whether the idea of people with real influence in the business world actually buying that kind of stuff, or the idea of people like that just pretending to buy it, worries me more.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:02 am ...the business world...

For clarification, I work for the government. However, a good bit of this crap does come from modern corporate culture, as best as I can tell.

masako wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:47 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:02 am ...the business world...

For clarification, I work for the government. However, a good bit of this crap does come from modern corporate culture, as best as I can tell.

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

masako wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:47 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 9:02 am ...the business world...

For clarification, I work for the government. However, a good bit of this crap does come from modern corporate culture, as best as I can tell.

What you describe also sounds like some of my father's complaints with both his previous (US Army) and current (Social Security) work. (Of course, whenever he calls, there are other complaints, but these are often at the top of the list.)

Yay, venting time.

How many mosquitoes are there in this room? I think I already killed two of them, and now I think I hear another one?

Just got a horrible burn on my finger from handling a microwaved bowl before it had time to cool. Typing is really hard now and it will leave a horrible blister. All that on top of a grueling work week. I can hardly enjoy my time off now with this painful injury.

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 7:13 pm Just got a horrible burn on my finger from handling a microwaved bowl before it had time to cool. Typing is really hard now and it will leave a horrible blister. All that on top of a grueling work week. I can hardly enjoy my time off now with this painful injury.

You may not know this: if you get a burn, run cold water over it, and keep the area wet. If it's still hurting, do it now.

(Apparently when you do this, you prevent blistering etc. It works for me for kitchen burns.)