Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:47 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:38 pm I had also begun pondering the fairly obvious racism as the conversation continued. A lot of the forms considered incorrect in Southern American English (and consequently that I was corrected out of adopting) do overlap with AAVE, presumably because they're strongly historically linked to one-another.

It should be remembered that the South is also the origin of the concept of "white trash", where poor Whites were seen as little better than Blacks, i.e. classism was just as much a factor as racism in the South.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:54 pm Yes, the two concepts are very much historically interlaced, though it seems (just from observation), Spanish-speaking Latine-Americans seem to be those most looked down upon (not that the other historically marginalised groups aren't still marginalised, though they seem, from my mostly non-marginalised position at least, less-so than in the past). These recent demographic shifts have also incidentally made Spanish an unprestigious language in the area (though I personally view the increase in bilingualism positively). A number of new words, mostly relating to newly-introduced foods — chayote ([tʃʰɑɪ'joʊ.diɪ], a kind of squash), jamaica ([hə'mɑɪ.kʰə], dried hibiscus flowers used to make herbal tea), and tuna ([tʰuʊ.nə], a kind of cactus fruit) come to mind — seems to be entering more general usage locally, however. I've also encountered culantro ([kʰuʊ'lɑ̞ːn.tɹoʊ~kʰuʊ'lɑ̞ːn.tʃɹoʊ]) for a specific kind of what would normally be called cilantro.

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 pm Speaking of "boughten", I have read that it is more commonly used as a dialectal variant of "store-bought" than used as a past participle of "buy". Is this the case?


Dictionary.com includes an entry for "boughten", but only recognizes it as a dialectal variant of "store-bought" not a past participle.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:12 pm Here Blacks seem to be looked down upon significantly more than Latines. The predominantly Black inner city of Milwaukee in particular is commonly associated with crime here. As for Latines, they frequently have the stereotype of being hard-working and being willing to do work that other Americans are unwilling to do, ranging from things such as cleaning offices to working on farms, the reverse of the other old stereotype of back when of Latines being lazy.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:47 pm I am familiar with -ought being replaced with -oughten in past participles in particular when combined with a particle such as up or out (and not just in the case of boughten). In particular I would use these forms a lot when I was young. Since then they have been more self-consciously dialectal to me, even though no one IRL has told me that they were "improper" or "incorrect". Interestingly enough though I have never used boughten so as to mean store-bought myself.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:58 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:47 pm I am familiar with -ought being replaced with -oughten in past participles in particular when combined with a particle such as up or out (and not just in the case of boughten). In particular I would use these forms a lot when I was young. Since then they have been more self-consciously dialectal to me, even though no one IRL has told me that they were "improper" or "incorrect". Interestingly enough though I have never used boughten so as to mean store-bought myself.

This one might be an actual archaism rather than just sounding like one.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:47 pm

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 pm Speaking of "boughten", I have read that it is more commonly used as a dialectal variant of "store-bought" than used as a past participle of "buy". Is this the case?


Dictionary.com includes an entry for "boughten", but only recognizes it as a dialectal variant of "store-bought" not a past participle.

I am familiar with -ought being replaced with -oughten in past participles in particular when combined with a particle such as up or out (and not just in the case of boughten). In particular I would use these forms a lot when I was young. Since then they have been more self-consciously dialectal to me, even though no one IRL has told me that they were "improper" or "incorrect". Interestingly enough though I have never used boughten so as to mean store-bought myself.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:55 pm My favorite real live archaism is keeping separate present participles and gerunds in informal speech. My dialect does not freely interchange final /əŋ/ and /ən/ with probably the sole exception of compounds of -thing such as something and nothing — but present participles can end in /ən/ in addition to the more formal /əŋ/ while gerunds must always end in /əŋ/, no matter how informal the register. For instance one can say He's read/ən/ poetry and He's doing a poetry read/əŋ/ but never *He's doing a poetry read/ən/. Hence here final /ən/ can be considered a continuation of ME -ende, which has been lost in Standard English.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:43 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:55 pm My favorite real live archaism is keeping separate present participles and gerunds in informal speech. My dialect does not freely interchange final /əŋ/ and /ən/ with probably the sole exception of compounds of -thing such as something and nothing — but present participles can end in /ən/ in addition to the more formal /əŋ/ while gerunds must always end in /əŋ/, no matter how informal the register. For instance one can say He's read/ən/ poetry and He's doing a poetry read/əŋ/ but never *He's doing a poetry read/ən/. Hence here final /ən/ can be considered a continuation of ME -ende, which has been lost in Standard English.

I have both forms in near free variation, and I often wish there were a standard orthographic -ind rather than the eye-dialect-looking -in' to represent the /ɪn/ form.

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:18 pmSpeaking of "boughten", I have read that it is more commonly used as a dialectal variant of "store-bought" than used as a past participle of "buy". Is this the case?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:54 pmtuna ([tʰuʊ.nə], a kind of cactus fruit)

LingEarth wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:45 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:54 pmtuna ([tʰuʊ.nə], a kind of cactus fruit)

How do you avoid getting this confused with the fish?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:37 am Some Eighteenth-century poetry suggests in its rhyme scheme that /ɪn/ was once the fashionable London pronunciation.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:47 am

LingEarth wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:45 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:54 pmtuna ([tʰuʊ.nə], a kind of cactus fruit)

How do you avoid getting this confused with the fish?

I personally hypercorrect a yod back in there. Otherwise, they're both homophones and homographs. I imagine the tuna-cactus will probably disappear after the new demographic assimilates more, but I could see tuna (cactus-fruit) v. tuna-fish (already common before the cactus tuna was introduced) also simply going on like that.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:51 am You don't have yod-dropping after coronals in stressed syllables?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:05 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:51 am You don't have yod-dropping after coronals in stressed syllables?

At some point or other, I acquired the habit of inserting (or reinserting) it after /t j n/, but not /s z/, such that "tuna" (the fish) is [tʰjuʊ.nə~tʃʰuʊ.nə], "dew" is [djuʊ~dʒuʊ] (often without yod-coalescence, also true of duel, probably as an attempt at not merging them with Jew, jewel), and "new" is [njuʊ] (all not regionally normative). I don't think I always had this yod in most of these places. While I don't remember being corrected about it, I think I simply at some point started thinking it was "correct" (probably from hearing it in older speakers, or in some broadcast speech or somesuch), and having the idea that I was supposed to speak "correctly", began inserting it (probably also influenced by the retention of the yod after /k g/ in words with written long u, eu, ew, making it likely partially a reading pronunciation).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:10 am It is interesting that non-yod-dropping survived where you are in e.g. the speech of older people; here yod-dropping after coronals in stressed syllables is complete, with no memory of not having it in the first place.