Zompist Bboard Again

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:29 am

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:25 am I do not define myself as right-wing,
my purchasing power has collapsed,
my student children are in debt,
despite that I am obliged to use my overtaxed cars, one of which is electric,
and change my means of heating,

How is any of that the immigrant's fault?

You're basically turning your country over to the dogs, exposing all minorities to god knows what bullshit the RN will come up with, all because of your fucking heat bills?
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Look, as much as I disagree with xxx’s politics… I think it simply plays into the fascists’ hands to get angry at people who complain about cost-of-living. That’s what lets them paint left-wingers as ‘those people who don’t care about your problems’.

(I wish I had any alternative suggestion, though — it is pretty obnoxious when people use cost-of-living as an excuse for all manner of horribleness.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:29 am

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:25 am I do not define myself as right-wing,
my purchasing power has collapsed,
my student children are in debt,
despite that I am obliged to use my overtaxed cars, one of which is electric,
and change my means of heating,

How is any of that the immigrant's fault?
You're basically turning your country over to the dogs, exposing all minorities to god knows what bullshit the RN will come up with, all because of your fucking heat bills?
You should be ashamed of yourself.

you quote the wrong part :

I deplore the ideological blindness which pushes towards extremes ,
I deplore the barrage of propaganda on the media and in schools that speak Newspeak,
the power of words is not enough,
I would like ALL parties to take into account the untreated problems
and not leave them to the extremists...
how can you be so blinded...

but in neither of the two am I talking about races to be blamed or protected,
I do not place myself in this false racist duality,
with my ancestors I would not risk it,
that is not the problem that is at stake here...
read me again...
we must not leave it to the extremes
to deal with the problems,
by denying them and preaching...

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:38 am
Look, as much as I disagree with xxx’s politics… I think it simply plays into the fascists’ hands to get angry at people who complain about cost-of-living. That’s what lets them paint left-wingers as ‘those people who don’t care about your problems’.

I'm not angry at people complaining about cost of living. I can complain too; there's nothign objectionable to it.
But finding excuses for fascists... that's what I can't stand anymore.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:15 am

• A huge bit of the problem is the 'neoliberal' (for lack of a better word) view of climate change as a matter of personal choice and responsability, that must be solved by individual efforts. That just won't work. You won't get people to switch to electric cars when they're out of the middle class' price range. You won't get people to take public transportation where it doesn't exist. Heat pumps are very nice, but people either rent or can't afford them.

I agree that that view is a problem, but I'm not sure if I'd call that view "neoliberal". It seems to be pretty common among the "deep green" crowd, too, and I'm not sure if I'd call the "deep green" crowd "neoliberal".

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:59 am I agree that that view is a problem, but I'm not sure if I'd call that view "neoliberal". It seems to be pretty common among the "deep green" crowd, too, and I'm not sure if I'd call the "deep green" crowd "neoliberal".

TBH, I'm not sure how to call that view either the one sure thing is that it's prevalent and I think mostly wrong.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:05 am the one sure thing is that it's prevalent and I think mostly wrong.

Agreed.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:09 am Another way of putting it though: don't we want the middle class to grow? do we prefer revolutions?

Generally speaking, people becoming more wealthy is good. However, middle class lifestyles under today's capitalist regimes are often supported by an unending crime spree that its members are shielded from by a superficial veneer of respectability. They occasionally realize this when they complain that basically every affordable product is unethically sourced in one way or another. Most of the time though, they have to forget this reality to function effectively.

It is not physically possible for an individual to do without every unethical privilege afforded to them by the system. If someone tried to minimize them as much as possible, their lives would not look recognizably middle class. To be perfectly honest, they would look like fucking weirdos, possibly brainwashed cultists or worse, Linux users.

Is it any surprise that substantial minorities want to improve their lives through an even greater sacrifice of ethics? This is a logical extension of the principles they have been brought up to believe are legitimate.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:54 am
It is not physically possible for an individual to do without every unethical privilege afforded to them by the system. If someone tried to minimize them as much as possible, their lives would not look recognizably middle class. To be perfectly honest, they would look like fucking weirdos, possibly brainwashed cultists or worse, Linux users.

Don't tempt me! I'm this close to swearing off civilization to go raise goats in the mountains.
More seriously, I know a fair amount of people who try to do just that. There aren't a lot of these, but they do exist.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:03 am Don't tempt me! I'm this close to swearing off civilization to go raise goats in the mountains.
More seriously, I know a fair amount of people who try to do just that. There aren't a lot of these, but they do exist.

Personally, I think it shows greater moral fiber to agitate for revolutionizing an unjust system than to abdicate responsibility by living in a hippie commune, one that's implicitly protected by the state's military. This only applies if the individual knows of a more ethical system of social organization. But I can't pass judgment without knowing an individual's circumstances. Maybe agitating will endanger a young child or something.

Also, it is unclear that the unethical policies advocated by today's far right would actually improve their lives. What they are calling for is often sadism for its own sake, policies that will backfire and make them poorer. They are too stupid to realize how much their lives are improved by unequal cooperation with the people they look down on.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:24 am Personally, I think it shows greater moral fiber to agitate for revolutionizing an unjust system than to abdicate responsibility by living in a hippie commune, one that's implicitly protected by the state's military. This only applies if the individual knows of a more ethical system of social organization. But I can't pass judgment without knowing an individual's circumstances. Maybe agitating will endanger a young child or something.

Are there still hippie communes somewhere? I don't know any I know people who try to be careful, even extremely so, about the ethics of what they produce and consume, and their lifestyle generally. There is certainly something of an alternative lifestyle. They're often very active politically. So the two options are not mutually incompatible.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:24 amAlso, it is unclear that the unethical policies advocated by today's far right would actually improve their lives. What they are calling for is often sadism for its own sake, policies that will backfire and make them poorer. They are too stupid to realize how much their lives are improved by unequal cooperation with the people they look down on.

I completely agree.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:31 am Are there still hippie communes somewhere? I don't know any

I haven't heard of any in the north of France. I've heard of one in Sardinia, and possibly one in the south of France. There are several in the US, India, Scandinavia, and many other places.

If you are still in the north of France, your best option might be to hobnob with artists a lot. Personally, I don't think artists are left-wing because art is left-wing or whatever. I think many artists see through the aesthetic effects of propaganda like magicians see through claims of the supernatural. But like every spiritualist is a magician, every effective propagandist is also an artist.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:31 am I know people who try to be careful, even extremely so, about the ethics of what they produce and consume, and their lifestyle generally. There is certainly something of an alternative lifestyle. They're often very active politically. So the two options are not mutually incompatible.

I'm skeptical of the possibility of making a meaningful difference through ethical living at the individual level. I'm not sure it adds up when the system is a mad kaiju rampaging through Tokyo. For example, every consumer of mainstream high tech products implicitly perpetuates unjust systems. The thought of calling a cab without using a phone makes blood rush to my head.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:31 am

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:24 amfar right is (...) too stupid to realize how much their lives are improved by unequal cooperation with the people they look down on.

I completely agree.

does this mean a contrario,
that the left wing does not apply these policies,
to improve its life,
thanks to the unequal cooperation
allowed by this population they look up on...

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:57 am If you are still in the north of France, your best option might be to hobnob with artists a lot. Personally, I don't think artists are left-wing because art is left-wing or whatever. I think many artists see through the aesthetic effects of propaganda like magicians see through claims of the supernatural. But like every spiritualist is a magician, every effective propagandist is also an artist.

I'm somewhere in southern France now. It's not hard to find people pursuing more alternative lifestyles around here, but I'm not sure there really are any bona-fides communes, cut off from the world.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:57 am I'm skeptical of the possibility of making a meaningful difference through ethical living at the individual level. I'm not sure it adds up when the system is a mad kaiju rampaging through Tokyo. For example, every consumer of mainstream high tech products implicitly perpetuates unjust systems. The thought of calling a cab without using a phone makes blood rush to my head.

Yeah, I have similar doubts.

xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:05 am does this mean a contrario,
that the left wing does not apply these policies,
to improve its life,
thanks to the unequal cooperation
allowed by this population they want...

What is that supposed to mean?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 8:09 am I'm somewhere in southern France now. It's not hard to find people pursuing more alternative lifestyles around here, but I'm not sure there really are any bona-fides communes, cut off from the world.

I don't know how reliable this is: https://chatgpt.com/share/dc966908-a862 ... 9a828ce37e

xxx wrote:

Ares Land wrote:

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:24 amfar right is (...) too stupid to realize how much their lives are improved by unequal cooperation with the people they look down on.

I completely agree.

does this mean a contrario,
that the left wing does not apply these policies,
to improve its life,
thanks to the unequal cooperation
allowed by this population they want...

in other words, you are implying
the left wing is in favor of immigration
to benefit from a better lifestyle
by exploiting this population...

There is data available to anyone with an internet connection that clearly demonstrates that immigration contributes to economic prosperity for all parties.

masako wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:48 am There is data available to anyone with an internet connection that clearly demonstrates that immigration contributes to economic prosperity for all parties.

Yeah, but looking up facts is boring and tiresome. Making things up is so much easier!

A minor point:

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:26 pm The UK press seems even worse— there seem to be no left-wing tabloids.

There are a couple - the Daily Mirror and the Daily Record - but their readerships are rather smaller than those of the D*ily M*il and the D*ily *xpr*ss, so you don't get to hear about them as much.

alice wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:31 pm A minor point:

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:26 pm The UK press seems even worse— there seem to be no left-wing tabloids.

There are a couple - the Daily Mirror and the Daily Record - but their readerships are rather smaller than those of the D*ily M*il and the D*ily *xpr*ss, so you don't get to hear about them as much.

Thanks, good to know!

Also, The Sunday People is pro-Labour, and the Morning Star is further left.