The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Space60]

The Cockney accent traditionally has yod-dropping in the same environments as American English. After /n/, /d/, and /t/ in "new", "due", and "tube". I have read that while they still have yod-dropping after /n/ in words like "new", they are more likely to have yod-coalescence than yod-dropping in words like "due" and "tune" these days.

[anteallach]

The Cockney accent traditionally has yod-dropping in the same environments as American English. After /n/, /d/, and /t/ in "new", "due", and "tube". I have read that while they still have yod-dropping after /n/ in words like "new", they are more likely to have yod-coalescence than yod-dropping in words like "due" and "tune" these days.

Yeah, yod dropping in new (and I suppose other /nj/ words) is still reasonably common, not just in London but more generally in eastern England; IIRC I've heard it from someone from as far north as Nottingham. I've hardly ever heard yod dropping in /tj/ or /dj/ words from BrE speakers, though I did have a university friend from Norfolk (the world capital of yod dropping; the traditional local dialect drops it after all consonants, not just coronals) who pronounced stupid as [ˈstʉːpɪd].

[Space60]

""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

[Travis B.]

""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

In the dialect here in southeastern Wisconsin it is /ˈɛləˌnɔɪ/, which for me is [ˈɜːɰɘ̃ːˌnɔ(ː)ɪ̯].

[Space60]

""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

In the dialect here in southeastern Wisconsin it is /ˈɛləˌnɔɪ/, which for me is [ˈɜːɰɘ̃ːˌnɔ(ː)ɪ̯].

Interesting. How do you say "milk", "pillow", and "vanilla"? I know some say them like "melk", "pellow", and "vanella".

[Travis B.]

""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

In the dialect here in southeastern Wisconsin it is /ˈɛləˌnɔɪ/, which for me is [ˈɜːɰɘ̃ːˌnɔ(ː)ɪ̯].

Interesting. How do you say "milk", "pillow", and "vanilla"? I know some say them like "melk", "pellow", and "vanella".

I have /ˈmɪlk/ [ˈmɘɯ̯ʔk] but my mother, who is from Kenosha, has /ˈmɛlk/ [ˈmɜɯ̯ʔk]. As for the others, I am only familiar with /ˈpɪlo/ [ˈpʰɘːɰo(ː)] and /vəˈnɪlə/ [vɘ̃ːˈnɘːɰə(ː)].

[foxcatdog]

Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

[Travis B.]

Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

[anteallach]

Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

[Linguoboy]

Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

In other words, the spelling Illinois is a relic of the period before the French Revolution shifted the common pronunciation of oi from [wɛ] to [wa] (originally a lower-class Parisian pronunciation). Some other local placenames preserve this pronunciation, e.g. the Courtois, a creek in east central Missouri locally known as the /ˈkɝtəˌweɪ/. It's also found sporadically in the pronunciation of North American French. (For instance, in the dialect of Cajun French I'm most familiar with, it's found in soixante but not poisson.)

In general, Illinois (and the Midwest in general) has a lot of spelling pronunciations of toponyms dating from the French Colonial era, probably due to the heavy influx of later immigrants. I would be interesting to know if /ˌɪlənəˈweɪ/ was ever an attested English pronunciation or not.

[Travis B.]

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

In other words, the spelling Illinois is a relic of the period before the French Revolution shifted the common pronunciation of oi from [wɛ] to [wa] (originally a lower-class Parisian pronunciation). Some other local placenames preserve this pronunciation, e.g. the Courtois, a creek in east central Missouri locally known as the /ˈkɝtəˌweɪ/. It's also found sporadically in the pronunciation of North American French. (For instance, in the dialect of Cajun French I'm most familiar with, it's found in soixante but not poisson.)

In general, Illinois (and the Midwest in general) has a lot of spelling pronunciations of toponyms dating from the French Colonial era, probably due to the heavy influx of later immigrants. I would be interesting to know if /ˌɪlənəˈweɪ/ was ever an attested English pronunciation or not.

One thing to remember about Midwestern toponyms is that there are a few notable placenames where orthographic <ch> is pronounced /ʃ/ such as Chicago and Michigan (but not Okauchee, by where I live, which has /tʃ/). Chicago with /tʃ/ in particular grates my ears to no end.

[Travis B.]

Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

Well yes - I meant to say that the spelling of a place name is French in origin.

[Linguoboy]

One thing to remember about Midwestern toponyms is that there are a few notable placenames where orthographic <ch> is pronounced /ʃ/ such as Chicago and Michigan (but not Okauchee, by where I live, which has /tʃ/). Chicago with /tʃ/ in particular grates my ears to no end.

What I find more irritating is the hyperforeign pronunciation of <ch> as /ʃ/ in languages where the orthography is not at all derived from French. In the USA, you hear this with Spanish names like Chavez, Italian ones like de Chirico, and even North Indian names like Chandigarh.

[Travis B.]

One thing to remember about Midwestern toponyms is that there are a few notable placenames where orthographic <ch> is pronounced /ʃ/ such as Chicago and Michigan (but not Okauchee, by where I live, which has /tʃ/). Chicago with /tʃ/ in particular grates my ears to no end.

What I find more irritating is the hyperforeign pronunciation of <ch> as /ʃ/ in languages where the orthography is not at all derived from French. In the USA, you hear this with Spanish names like Chavez, Italian ones like de Chirico, and even North Indian names like Chandigarh.

Agreed completely - and another example of this which grates me, albeit with <j> rather than <ch>, is Bei/ʒ/ing where Bei/dʒ/ing would be closer to the native Mandarin.

[Linguoboy]

Agreed completely - and another example of this which grates me, albeit with <j> rather than <ch>, is Bei/ʒ/ing where Bei/dʒ/ing would be closer to the native Mandarin.

This is also common (and slightly more understandable) with Hanyu Pinyin <zh>. Last week I watched a video where someone repeatedly said "Su[ʒ]ou" and it put my teeth on edge.

I've also heard hyperforeign /ʒ/ in Italian and North Indian names and unassimilated borrowings.

[Travis B.]

Agreed completely - and another example of this which grates me, albeit with <j> rather than <ch>, is Bei/ʒ/ing where Bei/dʒ/ing would be closer to the native Mandarin.

This is also common (and slightly more understandable) with Hanyu Pinyin <zh>. Last week I watched a video where someone repeatedly said "Su[ʒ]ou" and it put my teeth on edge.

I've also heard hyperforeign /ʒ/ in Italian and North Indian names and unassimilated borrowings.

I would say that /ʒ/ for Hanyu Pinyin <zh> is much more understandable given the set English convention of writing /ʒ/ in languages not typically written with Latin script (e.g. Cyrillic) with <zh> combined with most native English-speakers not knowing how Hanyu Pinyin works (just find a native English-speaker without much exposure to Mandarin who knows how to pronounce Pinyin <x>, <q>, <c>, or <z>).

[Space60]

There are people who say "coup de grace" as "coo de grah" rather than "coo de grahss".

Yes, in French an "s" at the end of a word is typically silent, but "coup de grace" doesn't end in an "s".

[Darren]

My favourite was someone saying kharkovchanka starting with /tʃ/.

I think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words. When my class started learning Spanish, their most common pronunciation of written <j> was as /ʒ/, even though they had never learnt French or anything. I'm not entirely sure why /ʒ/ in particular has this association – I assume it's a combination of being a phoneme found in English, but only prominently in foreign words. It's also pretty obivious in Russian and French, which are probably the most common foreign accents in movies (at least historically).

[Travis B.]

My favourite was someone saying kharkovchanka starting with /tʃ/.

I think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words. When my class started learning Spanish, their most common pronunciation of written <j> was as /ʒ/, even though they had never learnt French or anything. I'm not entirely sure why /ʒ/ in particular has this association – I assume it's a combination of being a phoneme found in English, but only prominently in foreign words. It's also pretty obivious in Russian and French, which are probably the most common foreign accents in movies (at least historically).

Thing is, in real live French loanwords in English that in the original French had (particularly final) /ʒ/, oftentimes native English-speakers replace it with /dʒ/, such as in garage...

[Rounin Ryuuji]

My favourite was someone saying kharkovchanka starting with /tʃ/.

I think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words. When my class started learning Spanish, their most common pronunciation of written <j> was as /ʒ/, even though they had never learnt French or anything. I'm not entirely sure why /ʒ/ in particular has this association – I assume it's a combination of being a phoneme found in English, but only prominently in foreign words. It's also pretty obivious in Russian and French, which are probably the most common foreign accents in movies (at least historically).

Thing is, in real live French loanwords in English that in the original French had (particularly final) /ʒ/, oftentimes native English-speakers replace it with /dʒ/, such as in garage...

I do have [gəˈɹɑːʒ] for garage, but I do hear the [dʒ] pronunciation not infrequently.