Zompist Bboard Again

Space60 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:24 pm The Cockney accent traditionally has yod-dropping in the same environments as American English. After /n/, /d/, and /t/ in "new", "due", and "tube". I have read that while they still have yod-dropping after /n/ in words like "new", they are more likely to have yod-coalescence than yod-dropping in words like "due" and "tune" these days.

Space60 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:13 pm ""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:32 pm

Space60 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:13 pm ""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

In the dialect here in southeastern Wisconsin it is /ˈɛləˌnɔɪ/, which for me is [ˈɜːɰɘ̃ːˌnɔ(ː)ɪ̯].

Space60 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:10 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:32 pm

Space60 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:13 pm ""Illinois"

It is pronounced "ill annoy" in Illinois, however many people elsewhere say "ill a noise" which many find annoying and it makes more noise.

In the dialect here in southeastern Wisconsin it is /ˈɛləˌnɔɪ/, which for me is [ˈɜːɰɘ̃ːˌnɔ(ː)ɪ̯].

Interesting. How do you say "milk", "pillow", and "vanilla"? I know some say them like "melk", "pellow", and "vanella".

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:34 pm Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:25 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:34 pm Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:45 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:25 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:34 pm Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:42 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:45 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:25 pm
Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

In other words, the spelling Illinois is a relic of the period before the French Revolution shifted the common pronunciation of oi from [wɛ] to [wa] (originally a lower-class Parisian pronunciation). Some other local placenames preserve this pronunciation, e.g. the Courtois, a creek in east central Missouri locally known as the /ˈkɝtəˌweɪ/. It's also found sporadically in the pronunciation of North American French. (For instance, in the dialect of Cajun French I'm most familiar with, it's found in soixante but not poisson.)

In general, Illinois (and the Midwest in general) has a lot of spelling pronunciations of toponyms dating from the French Colonial era, probably due to the heavy influx of later immigrants. I would be interesting to know if /ˌɪlənəˈweɪ/ was ever an attested English pronunciation or not.

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:45 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:25 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:34 pm Shouldn't it be Ill-uh-nwa?

Just because a place name is French in origin doesn't mean we pronounce like modern-day Parisians would.

It's Algonquian. (Wiktionary derives it ultimately from Miami ilenweewa, glossed "he speaks the regular way".) There's little French about it other than the spelling.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:28 pmOne thing to remember about Midwestern toponyms is that there are a few notable placenames where orthographic <ch> is pronounced /ʃ/ such as Chicago and Michigan (but not Okauchee, by where I live, which has /tʃ/). Chicago with /tʃ/ in particular grates my ears to no end.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:25 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:28 pmOne thing to remember about Midwestern toponyms is that there are a few notable placenames where orthographic <ch> is pronounced /ʃ/ such as Chicago and Michigan (but not Okauchee, by where I live, which has /tʃ/). Chicago with /tʃ/ in particular grates my ears to no end.

What I find more irritating is the hyperforeign pronunciation of <ch> as /ʃ/ in languages where the orthography is not at all derived from French. In the USA, you hear this with Spanish names like Chavez, Italian ones like de Chirico, and even North Indian names like Chandigarh.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:31 pmAgreed completely - and another example of this which grates me, albeit with <j> rather than <ch>, is Bei/ʒ/ing where Bei/dʒ/ing would be closer to the native Mandarin.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:12 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:31 pmAgreed completely - and another example of this which grates me, albeit with <j> rather than <ch>, is Bei/ʒ/ing where Bei/dʒ/ing would be closer to the native Mandarin.

This is also common (and slightly more understandable) with Hanyu Pinyin <zh>. Last week I watched a video where someone repeatedly said "Su[ʒ]ou" and it put my teeth on edge.

I've also heard hyperforeign /ʒ/ in Italian and North Indian names and unassimilated borrowings.

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:20 am My favourite was someone saying kharkovchanka starting with /tʃ/.

I think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words. When my class started learning Spanish, their most common pronunciation of written <j> was as /ʒ/, even though they had never learnt French or anything. I'm not entirely sure why /ʒ/ in particular has this association – I assume it's a combination of being a phoneme found in English, but only prominently in foreign words. It's also pretty obivious in Russian and French, which are probably the most common foreign accents in movies (at least historically).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:54 am

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:20 am My favourite was someone saying kharkovchanka starting with /tʃ/.

I think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words. When my class started learning Spanish, their most common pronunciation of written <j> was as /ʒ/, even though they had never learnt French or anything. I'm not entirely sure why /ʒ/ in particular has this association – I assume it's a combination of being a phoneme found in English, but only prominently in foreign words. It's also pretty obivious in Russian and French, which are probably the most common foreign accents in movies (at least historically).

Thing is, in real live French loanwords in English that in the original French had (particularly final) /ʒ/, oftentimes native English-speakers replace it with /dʒ/, such as in garage...