Zompist Bboard Again

Does anyone else have a long vowel in karate, as if it had /d/?. For instance I have karate [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)] but spotty [ˈspaɾi(ː)] (when I don't elide).

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:34 am It is well known that in American and British English, the short form of "mathematics" is spelled differently - "math" vs "maths". But what I wonder is, is it also pronounced differently? Because I'm not sure how to pronounce "maths" differently than "math".

Yes, of course — /mæθ/ vs /mæθs/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:14 am Does EngE have /pæðz/ for paths? I ask because it is common to pronounce paths that way in NAE -- for instance, I pronounce it as [pʰɛːθs] in isolation and [pʰɛːðz] before a vowel, not as *[pʰɛθs].

(I should have googled it -- RP has /pɑːðz/.)

For me, I think both are acceptible — /pɑːθs/ and /pɑːðz/. (I don’t say it often enough to know which is more usual for me.)

Note also that the singular is /pɑːθ/ for me.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:31 pm Does anyone else have a long vowel in karate, as if it had /d/?. For instance I have karate [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)] but spotty [ˈspaɾi(ː)] (when I don't elide).

I have /kəˈɹɑːti/ [kʰəˈɻʷˤɑːtˢi].

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:14 am Does EngE have /pæðz/ for paths? I ask because it is common to pronounce paths that way in NAE -- for instance, I pronounce it as [pʰɛːθs] in isolation and [pʰɛːðz] before a vowel, not as *[pʰɛθs].

(I should have googled it -- RP has /pɑːðz/.)

For me, I think both are acceptible — /pɑːθs/ and /pɑːðz/. (I don’t say it often enough to know which is more usual for me.)

Note also that the singular is /pɑːθ/ for me.

/pæθs/, which would for me be [pʰɛθs], feels like a spelling pronunciation, even though apparently it is cromulent GA. For the singular I have /pæθ/, which is typical GA; for me this is [pʰɛθ].

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 5:35 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 2:31 pm Does anyone else have a long vowel in karate, as if it had /d/?. For instance I have karate [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)] but spotty [ˈspaɾi(ː)] (when I don't elide).

I have /kəˈɹɑːti/ [kʰəˈɻʷˤɑːtˢi].

Were I to pronounce a /t/ as [tʰ] I would probably say [kʰəːˈʁˤɑˌtʰe̞(ː)].

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:53 pm I’m pretty sure that English English can have paths with a short vowel and voiced fricatives, but I can’t pluck the plural from memory. Wiktionary describes it as Northern, but non-lengthening is quite common elsewhere.

I have the short vowel in both singular and plural and pronouncing the latter with voiced fricatives feels very weird to me. It seems to me that voicing of otherwise voiceless fricatives in plurals does not occur after short vowels IMD.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 1:51 am

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:53 pm I’m pretty sure that English English can have paths with a short vowel and voiced fricatives, but I can’t pluck the plural from memory. Wiktionary describes it as Northern, but non-lengthening is quite common elsewhere.

I have the short vowel in both singular and plural and pronouncing the latter with voiced fricatives feels very weird to me. It seems to me that voicing of otherwise voiceless fricatives in plurals does not occur after short vowels IMD.

I too have this rule, but pronounce the word with the lengthened vowel like Bradn. I don’t know how widespread the rule is in British English. Wells reports voicing as having recently becoming much commoner in British English, and didn’t note any phonological constraints on the voicing. I think I voice in monosyllables with long vowels more often than I used to.

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 1:51 am I have the short vowel in both singular and plural and pronouncing the latter with voiced fricatives feels very weird to me. It seems to me that voicing of otherwise voiceless fricatives in plurals does not occur after short vowels IMD.

Except presumably in lexicalised cases like half/halves?

In the English I am familiar with (i.e. Inland North varieties and GA, particularly GA under their influence), alternation between fortis fricatives (i.e. preceding short vowels) in the singular and lenis fricatives (i.e. preceding long vowels, and voicing when followed by another vowel) in the plural is lexicalized and is largely not productive.