Zompist Bboard Again

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:28 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:54 am

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:20 am My favourite was someone saying kharkovchanka starting with /tʃ/.

I think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words. When my class started learning Spanish, their most common pronunciation of written <j> was as /ʒ/, even though they had never learnt French or anything. I'm not entirely sure why /ʒ/ in particular has this association – I assume it's a combination of being a phoneme found in English, but only prominently in foreign words. It's also pretty obivious in Russian and French, which are probably the most common foreign accents in movies (at least historically).

Thing is, in real live French loanwords in English that in the original French had (particularly final) /ʒ/, oftentimes native English-speakers replace it with /dʒ/, such as in garage...

I do have [gəˈɹɑːʒ] for garage, but I do hear the [dʒ] pronunciation not infrequently.

Certain British dialects totally anglicize the word "garage" to rhyme with "carriage".

I've heard of that.

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:20 amI think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words.

Another example: I've heard Hajj pronounced as /hɑːʒ/, when the original Arabic pronunciation would be closer to /hædʒ/.

Space60 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 6:48 pm There are people who say "coup de grace" as "coo de grah" rather than "coo de grahss".

Yes, in French an "s" at the end of a word is typically silent, but "coup de grace" doesn't end in an "s".

But final "c" can be silent, as in blanc, croc. More importantly: consonants followed by a silent "e" are never silent themselves.

Space60 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:15 pm Certain British dialects totally anglicize the word "garage" to rhyme with "carriage".

I thought this was simply the standard EngE pronunciation.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:02 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:20 amI think the thing with /ʒ/ is that English speakers think of it as a "foreign" sound, so they overcorrect by inserting it in foreign words.

Another example: I've heard Hajj pronounced as /hɑːʒ/, when the original Arabic pronunciation would be closer to /hædʒ/.

Really, almost any orthographic <j> or /dʒ/ in a "foreign" word is free game of this particular hyperforeignisation. It just occurred to me that another instance where I hear it frequently is in the name of the Italian wine Pinot Grigio.

As for French final /s/, I've been tripped up multiple times by French words (often culinary terms and their eponymous toponyms) with a final orthographic <s> that's actually pronounced. I distinctly remember, for instance, consulting the Larousse on Gigondas so that I wouldn't repeat the mistake I made with Calvados.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:46 pm As for French final /s/, I've been tripped up multiple times by French words (often culinary terms and their eponymous toponyms) with a final orthographic <s> that's actually pronounced. I distinctly remember, for instance, consulting the Larousse on Gigondas so that I wouldn't repeat the mistake I made with Calvados.

Isn't this often the case with names which are not Standard French in origin but rather are originally from some other Oïl or Oc variety?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:33 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:46 pm As for French final /s/, I've been tripped up multiple times by French words (often culinary terms and their eponymous toponyms) with a final orthographic <s> that's actually pronounced. I distinctly remember, for instance, consulting the Larousse on Gigondas so that I wouldn't repeat the mistake I made with Calvados.

Isn't this often the case with names which are not Standard French in origin but rather are originally from some other Oïl or Oc variety?

I haven't done a comprehensive survey so I don't know about "often". Calvados is a Norman place name, and Norman is pretty darn close to Francien. Gigondas, on the other hand, is derived from Occitan (Occitan spelling: Gigondaç or Gigondàs). According to French Wikipedia, Berlioz, although standardly pronounced with /z/, actually has a coda vowel in Arpitan. So I'd say It's Complicated.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:24 pm According to French Wikipedia, Berlioz, although standardly pronounced with /z/, actually has a coda vowel in Arpitan. So I'd say It's Complicated.

Aren't names of Arpitan origin notorious for having been written with orthographic final <z> or <x> not to mark actual consonants but rather to indicate stress placement?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:39 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:24 pm According to French Wikipedia, Berlioz, although standardly pronounced with /z/, actually has a coda vowel in Arpitan. So I'd say It's Complicated.

Aren't names of Arpitan origin notorious for having been written with orthographic final <z> or <x> not to mark actual consonants but rather to indicate stress placement?

Correct; see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=256&p=15282#p15234.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:46 pm Really, almost any orthographic <j> or /dʒ/ in a "foreign" word is free game of this particular hyperforeignisation. It just occurred to me that another instance where I hear it frequently is in the name of the Italian wine Pinot Grigio.

Many Italo-Romance varieties actually have something like [ˈɡriʒo], given that lenition of intervocalic shibilant affricates is reasonably widespread in the penninsula (I don't believe this is the source of the English pronunciation with [ʒ], though). This is supposed to explain why Latin cāseus becomes Italian cacio; when Tuscan singleton intervocalic [ʃ] was "dedialectalised" into [tʃ], words like cacio which (apparently) never had [tʃ] got caught up. I don't know enough about the history of standard Italian to assess the veracity of this; a possible alternative explanation is that Italian didn't yet have [ʃ] (modern [ʃː] still being [stʃ]), so the palatalised [s] in cāseus became [tʃ] because it was the next best thing.

"juvenilia"

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:15 pm "juvenilia"

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:15 pm "juvenilia"

More: show

I just had to spell this for the first time I can remember and kept getting it wrong. I've always had /eː/ for the stressed vowel and was surprised to find out that the normative form is with /iː/.

That supposedly normative pronunciation you mention (from Wiktionary?) seems very wrong, looking like an excessive classicalization by someone who loves Classical Latin vowel lengths too much. As if from the same kind of person who'd pronounce Cicero with /kɪk/ while speaking English. Surely the normative pronunciation is with /ɪ/, /dʒuvəˈnɪliə/, as both J.C. Wells in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (page 414) and dictionary.com say.

juvenilia:

juvenilia:
[ˌdʒʉvɘˈnɪliə]

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:48 pm That supposedly normative pronunciation you mention (from Wiktionary?) seems very wrong, looking like an excessive classicalization by someone who loves Classical Latin vowel lengths too much. As if from the same kind of person who'd pronounce Cicero with /kɪk/ while speaking English. Surely the normative pronunciation is with /ɪ/, /dʒuvəˈnɪliə/, as both J.C. Wells in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (page 414) and dictionary.com say.

I don't think "juve-KNEE-lia" is actually based on Classical Latin vowel quantities ... English speakers just seem to have a certain tendency to use /iː/ instead of /ɪ/ in words with this kind of spelling pattern. Compare the /iː/ which can be heard (although I prefer to use /ɪ/) in Parisian, aphrodisiac, pedophilia—the latter two would be "false quantities" if the length of the vowels in Ancient Greek ἀφροδῐσῐᾰκός and φῐλῐ́ᾱ had any relevance to the English pronunciation phenomenon, but I don't think that it does.

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:20 am juvenilia:
[ˌdʒʉvɘˈnɪliə]

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:48 pm That supposedly normative pronunciation you mention (from Wiktionary?) seems very wrong, looking like an excessive classicalization by someone who loves Classical Latin vowel lengths too much. As if from the same kind of person who'd pronounce Cicero with /kɪk/ while speaking English. Surely the normative pronunciation is with /ɪ/, /dʒuvəˈnɪliə/, as both J.C. Wells in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (page 414) and dictionary.com say.

I don't think "juve-KNEE-lia" is actually based on Classical Latin vowel quantities ... English speakers just seem to have a certain tendency to use /iː/ instead of /ɪ/ in words with this kind of spelling pattern. Compare the /iː/ which can be heard (although I prefer to use /ɪ/) in Parisian, aphrodisiac, pedophilia—the latter two would be "false quantities" if the length of the vowels in Ancient Greek ἀφροδῐσῐᾰκός and φῐλῐ́ᾱ had any relevance to the English pronunciation phenomenon, but I don't think that it does.

I personally have both pedoph/ɪ/lia and hemoph/ɪ/lia.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:55 pm

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:20 am juvenilia:
[ˌdʒʉvɘˈnɪliə]

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:48 pm That supposedly normative pronunciation you mention (from Wiktionary?) seems very wrong, looking like an excessive classicalization by someone who loves Classical Latin vowel lengths too much. As if from the same kind of person who'd pronounce Cicero with /kɪk/ while speaking English. Surely the normative pronunciation is with /ɪ/, /dʒuvəˈnɪliə/, as both J.C. Wells in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (page 414) and dictionary.com say.

I don't think "juve-KNEE-lia" is actually based on Classical Latin vowel quantities ... English speakers just seem to have a certain tendency to use /iː/ instead of /ɪ/ in words with this kind of spelling pattern. Compare the /iː/ which can be heard (although I prefer to use /ɪ/) in Parisian, aphrodisiac, pedophilia—the latter two would be "false quantities" if the length of the vowels in Ancient Greek ἀφροδῐσῐᾰκός and φῐλῐ́ᾱ had any relevance to the English pronunciation phenomenon, but I don't think that it does.

I personally have both pedoph/ɪ/lia and hemoph/ɪ/lia.

Now there’s a sentence which could so easily be taken the wrong way!

(That being said, I have those pronunciations too.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:01 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:55 pm

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:20 am juvenilia:
[ˌdʒʉvɘˈnɪliə]



I don't think "juve-KNEE-lia" is actually based on Classical Latin vowel quantities ... English speakers just seem to have a certain tendency to use /iː/ instead of /ɪ/ in words with this kind of spelling pattern. Compare the /iː/ which can be heard (although I prefer to use /ɪ/) in Parisian, aphrodisiac, pedophilia—the latter two would be "false quantities" if the length of the vowels in Ancient Greek ἀφροδῐσῐᾰκός and φῐλῐ́ᾱ had any relevance to the English pronunciation phenomenon, but I don't think that it does.

I personally have both pedoph/ɪ/lia and hemoph/ɪ/lia.

Now there’s a sentence which could so easily be taken the wrong way!

(That being said, I have those pronunciations too.)

Typically I am used to people being referred to as pedophiles rather than "having pedophilia" though.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:55 pm

Estav wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:20 am juvenilia:
[ˌdʒʉvɘˈnɪliə]

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:48 pm That supposedly normative pronunciation you mention (from Wiktionary?) seems very wrong, looking like an excessive classicalization by someone who loves Classical Latin vowel lengths too much. As if from the same kind of person who'd pronounce Cicero with /kɪk/ while speaking English. Surely the normative pronunciation is with /ɪ/, /dʒuvəˈnɪliə/, as both J.C. Wells in his Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (page 414) and dictionary.com say.

I don't think "juve-KNEE-lia" is actually based on Classical Latin vowel quantities ... English speakers just seem to have a certain tendency to use /iː/ instead of /ɪ/ in words with this kind of spelling pattern. Compare the /iː/ which can be heard (although I prefer to use /ɪ/) in Parisian, aphrodisiac, pedophilia—the latter two would be "false quantities" if the length of the vowels in Ancient Greek ἀφροδῐσῐᾰκός and φῐλῐ́ᾱ had any relevance to the English pronunciation phenomenon, but I don't think that it does.

I personally have both pedoph/ɪ/lia and hemoph/ɪ/lia.

same

I pronounce them both with /iː/, too.