Zompist Bboard Again

English speakers definitely have competing sets of rule about pronouns. I.e.:

1. use nominative/accusative as you would in Latin
2. use object pronouns with conjoined pronouns ("me and him went...")
3. because you've been rapped on the head for saying "him and me", always say "him and I" even in object position
4. try to avoid the issue by using "myself"

Besides conjunctions, one of the variable bits is the copula: "It's me" vs. "It is I". (What do grade school teachers say about this one nowadays?)

I'm kind of hopelessly in the #1 camp-- I just couldn't say "Me and Sam went to Disney Land". (I think I'd actually switch to a comitative: "No, I went to Disneyland, with Sam.")

Also, FWIW, nominative subject pronouns disappear if the verb isn't finite. Thus "I don't like him messing around in there", "What, me worry?"

I expect there's a strong French influence here.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:59 amI'm kind of hopelessly in the #1 camp--

And I'm pretty much in the "objective case except solo adjoining a finite verb" camp. (This is why me and him's marriage will never work!)

I personally would say "Sam and I went..." but "me and my friend went...", "me and him went...", and "it's me".

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:59 am 3. because you've been rapped on the head for saying "him and me", always say "him and I" even in object position

The rapping on the head comes from putting the first person singular pronoun first - "it's rude" - not for using the accusative.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:46 pm I assume he means that we can't say

*I thought they could save me, and me 'em.

Which I agree with, but I think it's a stress phenomenon. For me at least, the final word in the above construction is stressed, and stressed 'em becomes them.

Exactly.

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:37 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:59 am 3. because you've been rapped on the head for saying "him and me", always say "him and I" even in object position

The rapping on the head comes from putting the first person singular pronoun first - "it's rude" - not for using the accusative.

That may be the intent, but the effect for some people is they always say "...and I": "That's how it looked to Sam and I."

Ser wrote: ↑Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:55 am ...

Thanks for the detailed answer! Especially what you said about object raising à la te puedo ver makes sense, thinking about it. In the end that looks like traditional clitic linearization, just with some locality constraint.

I did not know either that that isn't a thing in French.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:43 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:37 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:59 am 3. because you've been rapped on the head for saying "him and me", always say "him and I" even in object position

The rapping on the head comes from putting the first person singular pronoun first - "it's rude" - not for using the accusative.

That may be the intent, but the effect for some people is they always say "...and I": "That's how it looked to Sam and I."

Agreed, but I think (3) is rare.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:09 am And I'm pretty much in the "objective case except solo adjoining a finite verb" camp. (This is why me and him's marriage will never work!)

Oo, now that's a juicy one! I'm unsure between using "me and him's" and "mine and his".

Mine and Bob's wedding - me and Bob's wedding - Bob and mine's wedding - ?Bob and my wedding - ?Bob and me's wedding
His and Bob's wedding - him and Bob's wedding - ?Bob and his wedding - Bob and him's wedding

What about with second person?

You and Bob's wedding - yours and Bob's wedding - ?Bob and you's wedding - Bob and your's wedding
You and him's wedding - you and his's wedding - yours and his wedding - ?his and yours wedding - him and yours wedding - him and you's wedding

I'm surprised I can understand Sri Lankan Malay, despite the big grammar difference. Sri Lankan Malay's grammar is like a Japanese grammar but with Malay words.

Nerulent wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:46 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:09 am And I'm pretty much in the "objective case except solo adjoining a finite verb" camp. (This is why me and him's marriage will never work!)

Oo, now that's a juicy one! I'm unsure between using "me and him's" and "mine and his".

Mine and Bob's wedding - me and Bob's wedding - Bob and mine's wedding - ?Bob and my wedding - ?Bob and me's wedding
His and Bob's wedding - him and Bob's wedding - ?Bob and his wedding - Bob and him's wedding

What about with second person?

You and Bob's wedding - yours and Bob's wedding - ?Bob and you's wedding - Bob and your's wedding
You and him's wedding - you and his's wedding - yours and his wedding - ?his and yours wedding - him and yours wedding - him and you's wedding

?MIne and Bob's weeding - me and Bob's wedding - ?Bob and mine's wedding - ?Bob and my wedding - ?Bob and me's wedding - Bob's and my wedding
?You and him's wedding - ?you and his's wedding - yours and his wedding - ?his and yours wedding - ?him and yours wedding - ?him and you's wedding - his and your wedding

German in that context just says die Hochzeit von dir und ihm, as long as it is just one wedding.
Deine und seine Hochzeit would imply two separate weddings.

Lol, I think this entry in Finnish Wiktionary might be a bit biased. My translation:

deplorable (plural deplorables)
1. (politics) Trump supporter, Trumpist conservative who is a racist or a hater.

I guess it would've been okay if they had included the main definition of deplorable, but this is the only definition for this word.

One fun thing I sometimes wonder about is whether the interpretation of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, which Eve and Adam eat and then get expelled from the Garden for, as an apple, was partly influenced by Latin mālum 'apple' and malum 'evil' becoming homophones, pronounced the same.

This would've meant that people hearing that line of the Lord's prayer, sed līberā nōs ā malō 'but deliver us from evil' (or, 'from the evil one') would've sounded exactly the same as sed līberā nōs ā mālō 'but deliver us from the apple'.

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:09 pm Lol, I think this entry in Finnish Wiktionary might be a bit biased. My translation:

deplorable (plural deplorables)
1. (politics) Trump supporter, Trumpist conservative who is a racist or a hater.

I guess it would've been okay if they had included the main definition of deplorable, but this is the only definition for this word.

I agree they should include the main meaning, and also maybe use capital letters. Though it isn't some random Finnish person calling Trump supporters that, at least. They called themselves that.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:20 pm

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:09 pm Lol, I think this entry in Finnish Wiktionary might be a bit biased. My translation:

deplorable (plural deplorables)
1. (politics) Trump supporter, Trumpist conservative who is a racist or a hater.

I guess it would've been okay if they had included the main definition of deplorable, but this is the only definition for this word.

I agree they should include the main meaning, and also maybe use capital letters. Though it isn't some random Finnish person calling Trump supporters that, at least. They called themselves that.

pejorative reclamation is p standard semantic drift; cf. 'queer', 'whig', 'tory', 'cavalier', 'roundhead', etc.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:20 pmI agree they should include the main meaning, and also maybe use capital letters. Though it isn't some random Finnish person calling Trump supporters that, at least. They called themselves that.

Oh, really? The Finnish article only says:

Etymology
Hillary Clinton used the word in 2016 and it was one of the reasons why she lost.

Clinton called Trump supporters that, in what became a famous gaffe at the time. Then they started referring to themselves with that term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables

Ser wrote: ↑Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:25 pm Clinton called Trump supporters that, in what became a famous gaffe at the time. Then they started referring to themselves with that term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables

Ah, I see. I hadn't heard of it before.