Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:23 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:58 pm

mae wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:35 pm I had heard about Dungan before but just completely forgot about it lol. Great news for me then.

I'm not sure it's much of a precedent though. It's younger than the Liverpool Chinatown!

I’m having trouble seeing how that’s relevant.

Why is Dungan any sort of useful precedent? It moved in the 1870's not the 730's. The Liverpool colony was even further west.

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:59 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:23 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:58 pm
I'm not sure it's much of a precedent though. It's younger than the Liverpool Chinatown!

I’m having trouble seeing how that’s relevant.

Why is Dungan any sort of useful precedent? It moved in the 1870's not the 730's. The Liverpool colony was even further west.

I still don’t see why this is relevant. Sure, it’s a lot easier to get from China to Liverpool in 1870 compared to 730, but as far as I’m aware the ease of travel from China to Kazakhstan didn’t change all that much during that time.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:50 am Karok amnaam "eating place; hotel". This seems to be a heavily fusional language, though, as the constituent morphemes are /av/ "eat" and /raam/ "place". It seems that the /v/ regularly changes to /m/ in most or all compounds.

also the word for yam .... English is pretty close to "yum", and Spanish has ñame ... both ultimately from a west African language, possibly Wolof which has ñàmbi. Dont know if that was onomatopoeic ... probably not ... but its sound might have helped the word's adoption, as opposed to just calling it "sweet potato" or some equivalent.

I remember there was a thread once on etymologies for numbers. I can't find it though.

mèþru wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:15 pm I remember there was a thread once on etymologies for numbers. I can't find it though.

Was it in the old board? If so, I may be able to find it for you since I have access to a backup.

(Etymologies of numbers is something I’ve always wondered about — if there’s a thread about it, I’d love to read it!)

I believe that was a thread in the old forum, from before mid-2018.

Ser wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:56 am I believe that was a thread in the old forum, from before mid-2018.

Alright, I’ll see if I can find it then.

I can’t find it, sorry. I searched for ‘number etymology’ and ‘numeral etymology’, but neither gave anything like what mèþru described. Can anyone remember any more details about it which I could use for searching? (e.g. approximate date, any interesting etymologies which were discussed, etc.)

(By the way, while searching, I found quite a few interesting threads — I had forgotten how much interesting stuff was on the old board! I hope zompist gets around to restoring incatena.org from backup sooner or later.)

I remember needing to construct words for four and seven, but it may not have been in a thread specifically about numbers. If I had saved the thread to disk, i would have been able to provide the URL from that saved copy, but I wasnt able to turn anything up by searching for "zompist four", "tapilula four" etc on my hard drive.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:10 am I remember needing to construct words for four and seven, but it may not have been in a thread specifically about numbers. If I had saved the thread to disk, i would have been able to provide the URL from that saved copy, but I wasnt able to turn anything up by searching for "zompist four", "tapilula four" etc on my hard drive.

Are you sure it was Tapilula? Searching for that only gives six results, none of them related to numbers.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:04 pm

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:10 am I remember needing to construct words for four and seven, but it may not have been in a thread specifically about numbers. If I had saved the thread to disk, i would have been able to provide the URL from that saved copy, but I wasnt able to turn anything up by searching for "zompist four", "tapilula four" etc on my hard drive.

Are you sure it was Tapilula? Searching for that only gives six results, none of them related to numbers.

Im sure that was the language, yes, but I may or may not have used the name of the language in the post. Without that, I cant give you much to search on, though, since I think I just worked in "pseudocode" form by using English glosses. The Tapilula numbers right now are:

hìga mà hò ògi tàpə hʷò ə̀ku ĕnu tʷŏno àpə hʷòku

(and yes thats eleven, because these arent just 1-10, but rather the morphemes that make up those numbers).

I havent really changed these morphemes in two years, but again, I doubt thisll turn up the thread because I dont think I typed the actual morphemes out in the post.

I might make a new thread for number system etymologies since I see some people here are interested in that, and could offer a few basic ideas ... I dont know how plausible my ideas are, but a wild idea is better than no idea if someone is absolutely stuck.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:22 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:04 pm

Pabappa wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:10 am I remember needing to construct words for four and seven, but it may not have been in a thread specifically about numbers. If I had saved the thread to disk, i would have been able to provide the URL from that saved copy, but I wasnt able to turn anything up by searching for "zompist four", "tapilula four" etc on my hard drive.

Are you sure it was Tapilula? Searching for that only gives six results, none of them related to numbers.

Im sure that was the language, yes, but I may or may not have used the name of the language in the post. Without that, I cant give you much to search on, though, since I think I just worked in "pseudocode" form by using English glosses. The Tapilula numbers right now are:

hìga mà hò ògi tàpə hʷò ə̀ku ĕnu tʷŏno àpə hʷòku

(and yes thats eleven, because these arent just 1-10, but rather the morphemes that make up those numbers).

I havent really changed these morphemes in two years, but again, I doubt thisll turn up the thread because I dont think I typed the actual morphemes out in the post.

I might make a new thread for number system etymologies since I see some people here are interested in that, and could offer a few basic ideas ... I dont know how plausible my ideas are, but a wild idea is better than no idea if someone is absolutely stuck.

I just searched for ‘four seven’ — no luck yet.

I am VERY excited to have discovered that David Edwards (aka Trailsend) has posted an updated grammar of Hiding Waters (fka Feayran) online. It's one of my favourite works of conlanging out there, and I'm pumped to get to read a fuller treatment on it (afaik there were only selective or very old descriptions of it online before). Posting because I need somewhere to express my enthusiasm!!!!

If you haven't encountered Hiding Waters before, I thoroughly recommend having a look!

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:34 pmIf you haven't encountered Hiding Waters before, I thoroughly recommend having a look!

I haven't, so I'll be sure to have a look. This in the preface shows its age: "I have the folks at the CBB and ZBB whose feedback and criticism helped shape the thing—Micamo, Eldin, Ossicone, Astraios, and especially Rickard, whose enthusiasm never failed to make me feel like a million dollars." I can only recall Astraios, and I've been on the board since what, 15 years or so?


JAL

Micamo, eldin raigmore, and Ossicone are all regulars at the CBB, and eldin also posts here though not so frequently.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:19 amMicamo, eldin raigmore, and Ossicone are all regulars at the CBB, and eldin also posts here though not so frequently.

Right, I completely read over the "CBB" part :).


JAL

I have a quick question. I'm working on a language family where one has prepositions and the other is highly inflecting. I need some help in how I go from a proto-lang with postpositions to a language with prepositions. Using postpositions to form case suffixes is simple, but I'm not sure what would drive the change from postpositions to prepositions.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:16 am I have a quick question. I'm working on a language family where one has prepositions and the other is highly inflecting. I need some help in how I go from a proto-lang with postpositions to a language with prepositions. Using postpositions to form case suffixes is simple, but I'm not sure what would drive the change from postpositions to prepositions.

What about: the noun is first introduced by a pronoun, which is the one taking the postposition/case inflection, then the noun immediately follows.
"I went to it, the garden"
"She goes with him, the boy"
May be triggered by the loss of gender inflection on the noun, thus the need for the pronouns. You may end up with inflecting prepositions, though.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:16 amI have a quick question. I'm working on a language family where one has prepositions and the other is highly inflecting. I need some help in how I go from a proto-lang with postpositions to a language with prepositions. Using postpositions to form case suffixes is simple, but I'm not sure what would drive the change from postpositions to prepositions.

That would largely depend on other features of the language. Is it strictly head final? Or mostly head initial? Are there already situations where heads and dependents can switch location, either static (like French adjectives) or dynamic (like Dutch prepositions of location/direction)?

Also, is there language contact with other languages? If so, what are the features of those languages? How intensive is the contact? What's the status of the other language(s)?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:15 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:16 amI have a quick question. I'm working on a language family where one has prepositions and the other is highly inflecting. I need some help in how I go from a proto-lang with postpositions to a language with prepositions. Using postpositions to form case suffixes is simple, but I'm not sure what would drive the change from postpositions to prepositions.

That would largely depend on other features of the language. Is it strictly head final? Or mostly head initial? Are there already situations where heads and dependents can switch location, either static (like French adjectives) or dynamic (like Dutch prepositions of location/direction)?

Also, is there language contact with other languages? If so, what are the features of those languages? How intensive is the contact? What's the status of the other language(s)?


JAL

The target language is basically very Welsh-like, so its default is VSO, noun-adjective, etc so I guess that makes it mostly head initial. There are occasions where word order can be changed but it's either poetic or for focus.

It has no language contact until very late, and then I haven't even decided on the languages with which it will have contact. The speakers live on an island, probably about half the size of Great Britain. The speakers split into three groups: those who leave the island and those who remained. Of those who left they split into two further groups - those who travelled south and those who remained in the North, resulting in three distinct languages: P, Q and L - so called because they resemble characteristic changes P-Celtic (North speakers), Q-Celtic (Southern speakers) and Latin (Islanders). I'm not too concerned with Q for now as I am trying to get to grips with P and L.