Conlang Random Thread

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bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

I am desperately in need of help with my current conlang. Due to a series of decisions — each of which I quite like individually — I have managed to create a conlang which is quite possibly unspeakable (in every sense of the term).

Firstly, all words have a minimum length constraint of at least two morae. So bal is fine, and yusay is fine, but *ni is not (though it’s fine as a clitic). Most often, words are two syllables long, though some particularly common ones are only one syllable.

Secondly, the verbal structure may be given by a (simplified) template of S=[(mute) V-(ASP) ADJ], where S= is a subject clitic, mute is the past tense marker, V is the verb, ASP is an aspectual suffix, and ADJ refers to a ‘noun adjunct’, a semi-incorporated nominal word used for light verb constructions. (e.g. In be=lhiise guqle ŋay ‘I find it’, lit. ‘I=look search it’, the noun adjunct is guqle ‘search’; we know it must be a noun adjunct rather than an argument because a sentence can have at most one direct object.)

Thirdly, there is extensive use of serial verbs. As is usual for serial verb constructions, all verbs are fully inflected, agreeing in tense and aspect.

Fourthly, the class of verbs is largeish but closed, with about 150–200 members. Other verbal meanings are expressed with either serial verbs or verb adjunct constructions:

Be=[waq fawetl]
1s=[do speech]
I speak (speak = do speech)

Ni=[siwi] [yusay] ŋay
2s=[take] [come] 3s
You bring it (bring = take come)

Ni=[wiilets] [qaathan] bal
2s=[contact] [fall] 1s
You push me (push = contact fall)

Ni=[paatli] ŋay [qisga tsilik]
2s=[make] 3s [break shatter]
You shatter it (lit. ‘you make it shatter’; shatter = break shatter)

(Note: for these glosses I’ve enclosed each pst+verb+adjunct in square brackets, as I did above.)

Now, all this is fine: each of the principles above is well-attested in natural languages. Even when they’re put together, the sentences don’t appear all that strange, though they’re a little bit verbose. However, the real problem is when these sentences are put into TAs other than the present imperfective. Recall that each verb is inflected independently, giving sentences like:

Ni=[mute siwi-i] [mute yusay-i] ŋay
2s=[PST take-PFV] [PST come-PFV] 3s
You brought it

Ni=[mute wiilets-i-ŋu] [mute qaathan-i-ŋu] bal
2s=[PST contact-PFV-TEL] [fall-PFV-TEL] 1s
You pushed me over

[Paatli-niiq] ŋay [qisga-niiq tsilik]
[make-IMP] 3s [break-IMP shatter]
Shatter it!

Now, maybe it’s just me, but I see a language where the word for brought is mute siwii mute yusayi to be stretching the bounds of credibility. As far as I’m aware, there is no known language with this level of verbosity — and as I said already, I consider such a language to be basically unspeakable.

Now, quite simply, my main problem is that there seems to be no obvious way of fixing this problem. I see a number of options, all of which are somewhere between undesirable and impossible:
  • The most obvious solution would be to use what has been called ‘nuclear’, ‘complex’ or ‘shared’ serialisation, in which the prefixes and suffixes surround the whole SVC instead of applying to each verb — effectively turning it into a verbal compound. This would give sentences such as ni=[mute [wiilets qaathan]-i-ŋu] bal, which in terms of verbosity seems far more acceptable. However, this approach runs into problems with verbal adjuncts: since the adjunct is quite clearly outside the affixes, as seen above in constituents like qisga-niiq tsilik, this would make it impossible to use verbal adjuncts in SVCs — a constraint I see as extremely undesirable and unnatural.
  • Along the same lines, a similar solution would be to restrict the marking to only one verb in the SVC, giving sentences like ni=[mute wiilets-i-ŋu] qaathan bal, which again has acceptable verbosity. However, I am not aware of any language which uses this as the only type of serialisation; thus this which would still leave the language with excessively long sentences (albeit not as many).
  • Another possible solution would be to make the past tense marker a bit shorter, changing it from mute to something like mus. This does make the sentences slightly shorter, but not by much, and besides I quite like the current past tense marker.
  • Potentially I could make the words themselves much shorter, preferring one-syllable rather than two-syllable words (recall the minimal word constraint allows CVV and CVC words). This would immediately make sentences much shorter — compare nimute wiiletsiŋu mute qaathaniŋu bal to something like nimus wiyeŋu mus qathiŋu bal — but it would require completely redoing the vocabulary (well, all 40 words of it, anyway), something I don’t look forward to doing.
  • My preferred solution would be to require mute only once at the beginning of the SVC, so using nimute wiiletsiŋu qaathaniŋu bal rather than nimute wiiletsiŋu mute qaathaniŋu bal. This immediately makes the sentence less verbose, but I’m not sure whether this is plausible at all — at present, mute is a (phonologically independent) prefix to the verb, something which I know can exist, whereas this proposal would require mute to be an placed outside the verbal complex as an unbound particle, which is something I’m not sure can exist.
So my questions are: firstly, is this amount of extreme verbosity really as bad as I’m making it out to be? And secondly, if it is, then is there any sensible way to reduce this verbosity?
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Moose-tache
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Moose-tache »

Why not just make each verb in a sequence after the first not carry TAM information? There's nothing unnatural about that, see subjunctives, converbs, participles, etc...

Alternatively you could just put the adjunct immediately after the verb it goes with, regardless of where the TAM suffixes might be. Both seem pretty unproblematic to me.
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by zompist »

Looking for a two-syllable past tense morpheme, I didn't have to go farther than my bookshelf: Aymara ayä. So, muntua = "I love", munayätua = "I loved".

Complete inflection on both verbs seems like overkill, at least in an agglutinative language. Personally, I'd leave the endings off one verb— or distribute them between the two verbs.

Making mute a particle seems like a good solution too. I can think of a possible example: early modern English. You could say "I did go home" as an alternative, and non-emphatic, version of "I went home." And sure, "did" originated as a full verb, but functionally it's just a carrier for the tense.
bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Moose-tache wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:38 am Why not just make each verb in a sequence after the first not carry TAM information? There's nothing unnatural about that, see subjunctives, converbs, participles, etc...
I already said why that won’t work:
bradrn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:17 pm Along the same lines, a similar solution would be to restrict the marking to only one verb in the SVC, giving sentences like ni=[mute wiilets-i-ŋu] qaathan bal, which again has acceptable verbosity. However, I am not aware of any language which uses this as the only type of serialisation; thus this which would still leave the language with excessively long sentences (albeit not as many).
(Though mind you, now that I think about it, I could get around that by saying that all non-contiguous SVCs have multiple marking and all contiguous SVCs have single marking… I’ll have to think about that.)
Moose-tache wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:38 am Alternatively you could just put the adjunct immediately after the verb it goes with, regardless of where the TAM suffixes might be. Both seem pretty unproblematic to me.
But then you’d have TAM suffixes on nouns, which doesn’t really seem right.

The basic idea (which I stole from Skou) is that the verb phrase can be considered in layers. The innermost layer is the verb and its affixes: V′ = [mute V-ASP]. Then you have the adjunct: V″ = [V′ ADJ]. Then you put V″s together to get an SVC: V‴ = [V″ V″ …]. (You can get non-contiguous SVCs as well, but that’s a slightly different construction, and I don’t mind if those SVCs get multiple past-tense marking anyway.) In this model, the reason that they can’t be reversed is obvious: you would have to put the adjunct inside the aspect suffixes, rather than outside.
zompist wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:44 am Looking for a two-syllable past tense morpheme, I didn't have to go farther than my bookshelf: Aymara ayä. So, muntua = "I love", munayätua = "I loved".
It’s not the disyllabic past tense that I’m worried about — it’s the fact that it’s repeated over and over again for every verb in the SVC, which makes even simple sentences excessively long (since the translation equivalent of a single English verb is usually a SVC of two or more verbs).
Complete inflection on both verbs seems like overkill, at least in an agglutinative language. Personally, I'd leave the endings off one verb— or distribute them between the two verbs.
Possibly this does seem like overkill, but it’s still a remarkably common method of forming SVCs. And I know of no language where single marking is the only method for forming SVCs (see my reply to Moose-tache above). I would like to distribute the affixes between the two verbs, but as I mentioned already I can’t do that since that would put affixes outside the adjunct.

(Oh, and by the way, this language is for the most part isolating, not agglutinative; it just so happens that aspect marking is via suffixes, and tense marking is via a near-prefix.)
Making mute a particle seems like a good solution too. I can think of a possible example: early modern English. You could say "I did go home" as an alternative, and non-emphatic, version of "I went home." And sure, "did" originated as a full verb, but functionally it's just a carrier for the tense.
Yes, that is true — I never said a past tense particle was implausible. But in order to solve my problem it would have to have very specific distributional requirements, which I’m not sure are attested. (Specifically, there would have to be only one past tense marker in a clause rather than one for each verb, and I would preferably want it to occur between the subject and the first verb. I believe Fongbe may have such a TAM marker, but the grammar only mentions it in passing and doesn’t give too much details about its placement in the sentence.)
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Pabappa
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Pabappa »

this discussion is way over my head, but i can share that my main conlang, Poswa, uses a system much like the one you said is unattested, and while it may indeed be unattested, I can assure that it at least works and makes sense to me when I write sentences. But Poswa is strange in many other ways and it's possible that the reason my idea works well in Poswa is because other options are precluded by its strict grammar. (Also, if it matters, the dependent verbs do still have person markers on, just not tense or mood; aspect is handled in other ways.)

That said, the system you're speaking of might exist in some Papuan languages. All i have a single sentence I remember from Encyclopedia Britannica long ago, stating that some Papuan languages have "regular" and "special" verb forms, and that the choice of which form to use is dependent on whether there is or is not another action mentioned in the clause.
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Pabappa wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:13 am this discussion is way over my head, but i can share that my main conlang, Poswa, uses a system much like the one you said is unattested, and while it may indeed be unattested, I can assure that it at least works and makes sense to me when I write sentences.
I assume you’re talking about a language using single marking for all SVCs? I know that such a system would definitely work, it just seems to be unattested — which I at least found surprising, since it would work so well.

(Oh, and you’ve also highlighted the main reason why I’m worried about verbosity: a system where words like ‘pushed’ are translated by mute wiilets mute qaathan emphatically does not make it easy to say things!)
But Poswa is strange in many other ways and it's possible that the reason my idea works well in Poswa is because other options are precluded by its strict grammar. (Also, if it matters, the dependent verbs do still have person markers on, just not tense or mood; aspect is handled in other ways.)
I seem to remember you saying at one point that Poswa wasn’t meant to be particularly realistic… Certainly the phonology is very odd by natlang standards, though I’ve looked through the grammar once or twice and I don’t remember seeing anything particularly unusual about the rest of it.
That said, the system you're speaking of might exist in some Papuan languages. All i have a single sentence I remember from Encyclopedia Britannica long ago, stating that some Papuan languages have "regular" and "special" verb forms, and that the choice of which form to use is dependent on whether there is or is not another action mentioned in the clause.
Yep, Papuan languages were indeed my main inspiration for this system. I already mentioned Skou; Kalam is another language with a closed verb class making heavy use of serial verbs. The division between ‘non-final’ and ‘final’ verb forms (or whatever your preferred terminology may be) seems particularly characteristic of the Trans-New Guinea family.
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Moose-tache
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Moose-tache »

bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:08 am
Moose-tache wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:38 am Why not just make each verb in a sequence after the first not carry TAM information? There's nothing unnatural about that, see subjunctives, converbs, participles, etc...
I already said why that won’t work.
Not really. What you said was: "I am not aware of any language which uses this as the only type of serialisation," to which I replied that the reason you don't see this is because serialization without repeated TAM information is called other things. But it still does what you're trying to do just fine.

In the sentence "She wants eats pizza" you have an SVC. But in English you would use the infinitive "wants to eat." As a bonus, you can skip the agreement suffix on the second element. Saying "this isn't realistic as an SVC" is like saying it's not realistic to have a unicorn with no horn. No shit! That's called a horse.

It's perfectly reasonable to use reduced forms, like participles, converbs, infinitives, or subjunctives, in the examples you gave above. You can't say it doesn't work, because it's working right now as I type this. If your objection to them is that they aren't labeled as serial verbs in formal grammars, then that's another problem.
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bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Moose-tache wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:07 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:08 am
Moose-tache wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:38 am Why not just make each verb in a sequence after the first not carry TAM information? There's nothing unnatural about that, see subjunctives, converbs, participles, etc...
I already said why that won’t work.
Not really. What you said was: "I am not aware of any language which uses this as the only type of serialisation," to which I replied that the reason you don't see this is because serialization without repeated TAM information is called other things. But it still does what you're trying to do just fine.

In the sentence "She wants eats pizza" you have an SVC. But in English you would use the infinitive "wants to eat." As a bonus, you can skip the agreement suffix on the second element. Saying "this isn't realistic as an SVC" is like saying it's not realistic to have a unicorn with no horn. No shit! That's called a horse.

It's perfectly reasonable to use reduced forms, like participles, converbs, infinitives, or subjunctives, in the examples you gave above. You can't say it doesn't work, because it's working right now as I type this. If your objection to them is that they aren't labeled as serial verbs in formal grammars, then that's another problem.
Ah, right, I didn’t realise that was what you were saying. It’s an interesting possibility, which I hadn’t considered when I wrote my original post. Sadly, to my knowledge, it still won’t work.

Let me explain. In the language I was talking about (no, it doesn’t yet have a name), SVCs are commonly used to yield verbal meanings which aren’t present in the rather small closed verb class. To do this, there needs to be a way to assemble multiple verbs together to yield a new verbal meaning. My understanding of those reduced forms you mention is that they can’t do that: to my knowledge, they’re all restricted to expressing specific types of subordination and clause-chaining (e.g. sequencing, purposives). Which is certainly a useful application, but not one that is important for this particular language. By contrast, serial verbs are great at combining verbs together to get a new verbal meaning: for instance, they may be used to express cause-effect (e.g. X contact Y, Y falls ⇒ X [contact fall] Y = X push Y), directional (e.g. X take Y, X come ⇒ X [take come] Y = X bring Y), or instrumental (e.g. X take Y, X cut ⇒ X [take cut] Y = X cut Y) meanings. So essentially, I need a construction which can combine multiple verbs, within one clause, with specific rules for argument-sharing and semantics, yielding a single-event meaning — something which is usually taken to be the very definition of an SVC. There could exist a ‘reduced form’ construction (like what you describe) which has those semantics, but if so then it would most probably end up being called a ‘serial verb construction’ as well. (Indeed, I believe Khwe has such an SVC; I’ll have to look into it.)
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Moose-tache »

Sorry I wasn't very nice in my previous reply. Anyway, you absolutely can make semantic distinctions with subordination, just as you can with serial verbs. Examples in English include "to go camping," which differs from "to camp" in more than simply an aspectual sense. E.g. you don't get the same distinction when you say "to go fishing" vs "to fish." You can't say "the army went camping on the high ground before the battle," because it is semantically distinct. This happens a lot in languages that make frequent use of light verbs, like Korean and Japanese. In Korean -go hada (equivalent to Japanese -te suru) is an aspectual subordination technique, but it often carries subtleties of semantic meaning as well. If your language only has 200 verb roots, you can easily have subordination techniques that create semantic variations. If you're worried about this interfering with actual subordination, then just make the semantic subordination archaic, and different from the currently productive subordination forms. Maybe the null ending used to make participles, but nowadays that just makes serial verbs and current participles take -ba or something.
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bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Moose-tache wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:05 am Sorry I wasn't very nice in my previous reply.
You were? I didn’t notice.
Anyway, you absolutely can make semantic distinctions with subordination, just as you can with serial verbs. Examples in English include "to go camping," which differs from "to camp" in more than simply an aspectual sense. E.g. you don't get the same distinction when you say "to go fishing" vs "to fish." You can't say "the army went camping on the high ground before the battle," because it is semantically distinct. This happens a lot in languages that make frequent use of light verbs, like Korean and Japanese. In Korean -go hada (equivalent to Japanese -te suru) is an aspectual subordination technique, but it often carries subtleties of semantic meaning as well. If your language only has 200 verb roots, you can easily have subordination techniques that create semantic variations. If you're worried about this interfering with actual subordination, then just make the semantic subordination archaic, and different from the currently productive subordination forms. Maybe the null ending used to make participles, but nowadays that just makes serial verbs and current participles take -ba or something.
This is true — it certainly is possible to have different semantics with subordination. But there are still problems with using subordination versus SVCs. Most problematically, subordination (or coordination) gives a sentence which is (a) multi-clausal and (b) contains multiple events. By contrast, SVCs (ignoring some edge cases) give a sentence which is (a) mono-clausal and (b) semantically integrated into a single event. (In English, compare the single-event, single-clause He struck the pig dead vs the multi-event, multi-clause He struck the pig and it died; similarly compare the SVC He pushes her = he [touches falls] her to the coordinate construction He touches her and then she falls.) In a language with a closed verb class, SVCs allow multiple verbs to be combined to give a single event, of the sort which another language might express with a single verb; by contrast, subordination can only link multiple events together.
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by zompist »

You two are definitely not using "subordination" in the same way. Japanese -te suru is definitely along the lines you're talking about with SVCs, and not at all like "He struck the pig and it died".

I don't know anything about Papuan languages, but the inflection of multiple verbs within one clause definitely strikes me as odd; is this attested in the natlangs you're looking at?
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

zompist wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:32 am You two are definitely not using "subordination" in the same way. Japanese -te suru is definitely along the lines you're talking about with SVCs, and not at all like "He struck the pig and it died".
That sounds interesting! I know nothing about Japanese; do you have any more details about this? (I hear Japanese also has a closed verb class, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see similar ways of composing verbs.)
I don't know anything about Papuan languages, but the inflection of multiple verbs within one clause definitely strikes me as odd; is this attested in the natlangs you're looking at?
Yep, it’s reasonably common in SVCs. e.g. Tidore:

…ui
…sand
ngge
3NH:there
ngone
1p
fo-tagi
1p:INC:A-go
fo-oro
1p:INC:A-fetch
ino
this:way
fo-wohe
1p:INC-dry
wange
sun

…the sand we go fetch it here (and) dry it in the sun.

Maybrat:

T-ama
1s-come
t-pat
1s-move:from
Sorong.
Sorong

I came from Sorong.

Akan (a well-known example sentence, where the person-marking on the second verb does not correspond to its subject):

mede
1s.take
aburow
corn
migu
1s.flow
msum
water.in

I pour corn into water. (lit. [I 1s-pour corn] [corn 1s-flow in water])

Tariana:

ãpia
pigs
kesani-wani
smell-CL:COLL
du-thaku-se
3s-nose-LOC
di-wha
3s-fall
de꞉ɾu-pidana
3s+get.stuck-REM.PAST.REP

She felt the smell of wild pigs. (lit. [the pigs’ smell fell] [the pigs’ smell got stuck in her nose])

Skou:

Pe
3s.F
pe=w-a-wa
3s.F=3s.F-walk~INT
te
3s.F.go
líhi
garden
tue.
3s.F.do

She wants to walk to the garden.

(The Skou case is interesting, actually, since each inflectional category is marked differently: pronominal agreement is obligatory on all verbs, pronominal clitic agreement is optional on all but the first verb, aspectual reduplication applies only to the first verb, and the auxiliary is specified only once, at the end. This does suggest a potential resolution to my problem if I treat mute as an auxiliary, but if so it would be an atypically simple auxiliary system, having exactly one rigidly placed auxiliary with no interaction with the rest of the TAM system.)
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by jal »

bradrn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:17 pmguqle ‘search’
I saw what you did there :).


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Richard W
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Richard W »

When you described the system, you described mute as unusual, being the only TAM preceding the verb root. Given that behaviour, and it's apparently not being a clitic, it seems eminently reason not to redundantly repeat it. English precedents spring to mind:
  • You've gone and broken it, rather than You've gone and you've broken it
  • Let's cut and paste the text, rather than Let's cut and let's paste the text.
There's also a tendency, in my English at least, to inflect 'cut and paste' as a unit, at least with longer inflections - 'cut and pasting' may not be totally acceptable, but it's a strong rival to 'cutting and pasting'. How well could the language optionally move all the adjuncts to the end? For example, in Thai, which makes great use of serial verb constructions, one doesn't say go to the market and buy some eggs, but go and buy some eggs in the market. In the longer form, both 'marker' and 'some eggs' look like direct objects, but there is an explicit functional equivalent of a preposition for 'in the market'. Note that English happily shares non-clitic TAM markers between verbs. There is also the converse construction, where the differences in semantically light inflections may be ignored - I have always and will contine to buy my potatoes at the greengrocer's.

I think your language can do this sort of thing. It may well be hard to nail down the rules, as with English. There will probably be a shorter and a longer way of saying some things. It will probably be dependent on the length of the markers - short markers may be more readily repeated, as in English You went and broke it.
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ares Land »

bradrn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:17 pm
[*] My preferred solution would be to require mute only once at the beginning of the SVC, so using nimute wiiletsiŋu qaathaniŋu bal rather than nimute wiiletsiŋu mute qaathaniŋu bal. This immediately makes the sentence less verbose, but I’m not sure whether this is plausible at all — at present, mute is a (phonologically independent) prefix to the verb, something which I know can exist, whereas this proposal would require mute to be an placed outside the verbal complex as an unbound particle, which is something I’m not sure can exist.
[/list]
I'm not sure I understand the problem. Doesn't Mandarin, for instance, do just that with sentence-final aspectual particles?

That said, I'm not terribly concerned about whether a given construction is attested anywhere. What counts is that it makes sense internally -- and the solution you suggest does make sense.
I think it's easily justifiable diachronically.

Let's say for instance, that mute was initially an adverb ('then' or somethign), and that adverbs were placed between subject and verb complex, which sounds perfectly reasonable. Later on, adverbs move to another position; but not mute, how used as a past marker.
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Ares Land wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pm
bradrn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:17 pm
[*] My preferred solution would be to require mute only once at the beginning of the SVC, so using nimute wiiletsiŋu qaathaniŋu bal rather than nimute wiiletsiŋu mute qaathaniŋu bal. This immediately makes the sentence less verbose, but I’m not sure whether this is plausible at all — at present, mute is a (phonologically independent) prefix to the verb, something which I know can exist, whereas this proposal would require mute to be an placed outside the verbal complex as an unbound particle, which is something I’m not sure can exist.
[/list]
I'm not sure I understand the problem. Doesn't Mandarin, for instance, do just that with sentence-final aspectual particles?
Well, as it happens, I did not know that Mandarin aspect particles are consistently sentence-final (or possibly I knew and then forgot)… if I make the past tense marker sentence-final, that would solve my problem neatly, thank you! And it would be nicely consistent too, since I already have a sentence-final negative particle. (Hmm, I wonder if they would fuse?)

Mind you, it would be somewhat odd to have aspectual markers and tense markers located in completely different places in the sentence… is that sort of thing attested at all? And even beyond that, I’m not sure if there even is such a thing as an unbound tense particle: a while ago I tried to see if there was any language with a tense particle which isn’t located next to the verb, but I don’t remember finding one.
I think it's easily justifiable diachronically.

Let's say for instance, that mute was initially an adverb ('then' or somethign), and that adverbs were placed between subject and verb complex, which sounds perfectly reasonable. Later on, adverbs move to another position; but not mute, how used as a past marker.
And that’s very helpful too, thank you! I never thought about justifying it diachronically. It’s just a pity that ad-things go after their head in this language, rather than before them, otherwise it would be a very good solution…
Richard W wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:40 am When you described the system, you described mute as unusual, being the only TAM preceding the verb root. Given that behaviour, and it's apparently not being a clitic, it seems eminently reason not to redundantly repeat it.
On the other hand, I’ve been thinking of it as a (phonologically non-integrated) prefix, in which case it is repeating it which seems eminently sensible. I suppose it all depends on how you analyse it.
English precedents spring to mind:
  • You've gone and broken it, rather than You've gone and you've broken it
  • Let's cut and paste the text, rather than Let's cut and let's paste the text.
You’re right, I had completely forgotten that this is possible. I’m still not entirely convinced, but this shows that it is at least plausible to give the past-tense marker only once, before the first verb.

However, even knowing that it’s possible to do this, I’m still concerned about how this would interact with the adjunct system: if the language allows SVCs of the form [mute [V₁-ASP ADJ₁] [V₂-ASP ADJ₂] …], then the constituent structure would have to be [mute [V-ASP ADJ]], with the adjunct being closer to the verb than the past-tense marker — something which seems decidedly odd. Alternately, it might be possible to analyse mute as some sort of adverb or auxiliary, but I’d be wary of doing that since its behaviour seems atypical for those classes.
There's also a tendency, in my English at least, to inflect 'cut and paste' as a unit, at least with longer inflections - 'cut and pasting' may not be totally acceptable, but it's a strong rival to 'cutting and pasting'. How well could the language optionally move all the adjuncts to the end? For example, in Thai, which makes great use of serial verb constructions, one doesn't say go to the market and buy some eggs, but go and buy some eggs in the market. In the longer form, both 'marker' and 'some eggs' look like direct objects, but there is an explicit functional equivalent of a preposition for 'in the market'. Note that English happily shares non-clitic TAM markers between verbs. There is also the converse construction, where the differences in semantically light inflections may be ignored - I have always and will contine to buy my potatoes at the greengrocer's.
I must admit, I’m not entirely sure what your point is here — yes, it is possible to move adjuncts around, but why does it matter? (And keep in mind that the things I’ve been calling ‘adjuncts’ aren’t the same thing at all; I’ve been calling them that because it seems to be a standard term, but they might more accurately be ‘incorporated noun’.)
jal wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:30 am
bradrn wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:17 pmguqle ‘search’
I saw what you did there :).
But it’s pronounced /ˈɣuʔlə/, so any resemblance you may imagine is purely orthographical. (And this is a proto-language — in the daughters, it will probably end up something like /ˈhṵlə/.)
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Kuchigakatai »

Ares Land wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pmI'm not sure I understand the problem. Doesn't Mandarin, for instance, do just that with sentence-final aspectual particles?
I think only sentence-final 了 le 'COS' (change-of-state) can mark aspect... Here below, for example, the sentence-final 了 le is combined with the verbal -了 -le (a marker of perfective aspect) changing the meaning of the overall expressed aspect:

我學兩年的中文 wǒ xué-le liǎng nián de zhōngwén
1SG study-PFV two year ADJ Chinese
'I studied Chinese for two years.' (-了 -le = perfective aspect, past tense: I stopped studying it right after that time, je l'ai étudié)
'Once I have studied Chinese for two years (in the future), [I will...] ...' (perfective aspect, future tense)

我學兩年的中文 wǒ xué-le liǎng nián de zhōngwén le
1SG study-PFV two year ADJ Chinese COS
'I've been studying Chinese for two years.' (-了...了 -le ... le = perfect aspect: it's still going on, je l'étudie depuis...)

The other sentence-final particles are rather to express emotions, politeness, or to turn sentences into questions... For example, 吧 ba is used to mark polite imperatives or suggestions ("please", "I'd say you could...", "let's..."), or to express you're not confident about what is said in the sentence ("maybe...?", "I guess...?"), or (by extension) that you're not confident about the statement as a decision ("should I...?", "maybe I could...").
bradrn
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Ser wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:29 pm
Ares Land wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:36 pmI'm not sure I understand the problem. Doesn't Mandarin, for instance, do just that with sentence-final aspectual particles?
I think only sentence-final 了 le 'COS' (change-of-state) can mark aspect...
Oh, pity. Well there goes that idea then. (Unless there exists some other language which uses unbound particles for TA?)
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Ares Land
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by Ares Land »

bradrn wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:40 pm

Oh, pity. Well there goes that idea then. (Unless there exists some other language which uses unbound particles for TA?)
On the contrary; you just need one TA marker to be sentence-final, which is exactly what happens in Mandarin :)

Another idea: how about having mute be originally an evidential? These are attested as sentence final particles, or you could attach them to subject pronouns (that must exist somewhere!) and evidentials taking on tense meanings are attested in Iroquoian, for instance.

(Technically, for instance the Iroquoian aorist or future are modals; the aorist is often called the factual. But the aorist/factual is often translated as a past tense, which is counter intuitive, but makes a lot of sense really: you can only be certain about past events!)
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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Post by bradrn »

Ares Land wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:34 am
bradrn wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:40 pm

Oh, pity. Well there goes that idea then. (Unless there exists some other language which uses unbound particles for TA?)
On the contrary; you just need one TA marker to be sentence-final, which is exactly what happens in Mandarin :)
Oh, of course. I feel stupid now for totally misunderstanding what Ser was saying…
Another idea: how about having mute be originally an evidential? These are attested as sentence final particles, or you could attach them to subject pronouns (that must exist somewhere!) and evidentials taking on tense meanings are attested in Iroquoian, for instance.

(Technically, for instance the Iroquoian aorist or future are modals; the aorist is often called the factual. But the aorist/factual is often translated as a past tense, which is counter intuitive, but makes a lot of sense really: you can only be certain about past events!)
Interesting… but how would an evidential evolve to a tense-marker? I can’t see an easy route for that.
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