Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:52 am**

poor [pʰu(ː)ʁˤ]
boor [b̥u(ː)ʁˤ]
moor [mu(ː)ʁˤ]
to pour [pʰɔ(ː)ʁˤ]
tour [tʲʷʰy(ː)ʁˤ]
tourist [ˈtʲʷʰyːʁˤɘs(t)]
tournament [ˈtʲʰʁ̩̃ˤːɾ̃ə̃ːˌmɘ̃ʔ]~[ˈtʲʰʁ̩̃ˤːɾ̃ə̃ːˌmɘ̃nt]
tourniquet [ˈtʲʰʁ̩̃ˤːɾ̃ɘkɘ̃ʔ(t)]
Tourette syndrome [tʲʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɜ̃ʔ(t)]~[tʲʷʰyːˈʁˤɜ̃ʔ(t)]
path [ˈpʰɛθ]
truth [ˈtɕʰɻʁyθ] *
paths [ˈpʰɛːθs] **
truths [ˈtɕʰɻʁyθs] *

* [ɻʁ] is actually dual-articulated here.
** This actually reflects underlying /ðz/.

Posted: **Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:20 pm**

My impression is that in England people who use [paθ] usually use [paθs] for the plural but that people who use [pɑːθ] may use either [pɑːθs] or [pɑːðz]. I use [paθ] and [paðz] feels really weird.

Posted: **Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:18 pm**

poor boor moor: /por bor mor/
to pour: /por/
tour: /tor/
tourist: either /ˈtorɪst/ or /ˈtɚɪst/, not sure at this point
tournament: /ˈtɚnəmɨnt/
tourniquet /ˈtɚnɨkɨt/
Tourette syndrome /tərˈɛt/

paths/truths -θs although /pæðz/ is correct

Posted: **Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:07 pm**

I should note that here poor can be either [pʰu(ː)ʁˤ] or [pʰɔ(ː)ʁˤ], even though I personally only have [pʰu(ː)ʁˤ] for it ([pʰɔ(ː)ʁˤ] feels like a dialect borrowing to me), whereas tour is always [tʲʷʰy(ː)ʁˤ] or [tʲʷʰʉ(ː)ʁˤ] and never [tʰɔ(ː)ʁˤ] here.

Posted: **Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:52 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:36 am How about:

miracle
illustrate
irritate
South Africa

miracle [ˈmɪɹɪkʰʊɫ]
illustrate [ˈɪɫəstɹæɪ̯t]
irritate [ˈɪɹətʰæɪ̯t
South Africa [ˌsæɔθ ˈæfɹɪkɐ]

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:08 pm
poor boor moor
to pour
tour
tourist
tournament
tourniquet
Tourette syndrome

Also, what about path/truth vs. paths/truths? Saw some people elsewhere saying they pronounce the former pair of singulars with /θ/, but the latter pair of plurals with /θs/ or /ðz/.

poor boor moor [pʰoː boː moː ]
to pour [pʰoː ]
paw [pʰoː ]
tour [tʰʉːwɐ]
tourist [tʰʉːɹəst]
tournament [ˈtoːnəmənʔ]
tourniquet [ˈtoːnəkʰæɪ̯]
Tourette syndrome [tʰəˈɹɛts ˈsɪndɹɐʉ̯m]

Both "path" and truths get voiced in the plural. One funny thing for me is that I've heard people from north America also doing this with "moths".

Posted: **Sat Oct 14, 2023 6:02 pm**

Imralu wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:52 pm Both "path" and truths get voiced in the plural. One funny thing for me is that I've heard people from north America also doing this with "moths".

/me raises hand for -/ðz/ in moths.

Posted: **Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:07 pm**

Is there any dialect which merges the pronunciations of 'chancellor' and 'transfer'? Or is there always at least the opposition between /l/ and /f/?

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2023 2:39 am**

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:07 pm Is there any dialect which merges the pronunciations of 'chancellor' and 'transfer'? Or is there always at least the opposition between /l/ and /f/?

Which dialects actually merge the onsets of the first syllables? I'd have thought that most dialects with assibilation of /tr/ either retain the rhotic or have a more palatalised affricate for inherited /tʃ/.

Posted: **Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:14 am**

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:07 pm Is there any dialect which merges the pronunciations of 'chancellor' and 'transfer'? Or is there always at least the opposition between /l/ and /f/?

I am not aware of any English dialect which drops the rhotic in /tr/ or which ever merges /l/ and /f/.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:28 am**

Wtf would be the pathway to merging /l/ and /f/? Can't see that happening in any variety of English unless we get into very hypothetical future developments and even then, it would require multiple stages. (E.g. [l] > [ɬ] > [ɬʷ] > [ʍ] > [ɸ] > [f]) And for those two words to merge, there's also the dropping of the schwa (easily imaginable) and the merging of /tr/ and /tʃ/, which is not far fetched at all, but I don't know of any dialect where it's happened yet.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:31 am**

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:28 am Wtf would be the pathway to merging /l/ and /f/?

Perhaps via /l/-vocalisation and lenition: l→ɫ→w, f→ʋ→w. The first is plausible considering Australian English, and the second is plausible considering Indian English. The combination would be strange, though.

EDIT: In any case I wouldn’t merge them because the vowels are different: ch[æ]ncell[ɐ] vs tr[ɑː]nsf[əː].

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:44 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:31 amEDIT: In any case I wouldn’t merge them because the vowels are different: ch[æ]ncell[ɐ] vs tr[ɑː]nsf[əː].

If you say "trarnsfer", why don't you say "charncellor"?

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:09 pm**

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:28 am Wtf would be the pathway to merging /l/ and /f/? Can't see that happening in any variety of English unless we get into very hypothetical future developments and even then, it would require multiple stages. (E.g. [l] > [ɬ] > [ɬʷ] > [ʍ] > [ɸ] > [f]) And for those two words to merge, there's also the dropping of the schwa (easily imaginable) and the merging of /tr/ and /tʃ/, which is not far fetched at all, but I don't know of any dialect where it's happened yet.

The two liquids in 'Chancellor of the Exchequer' makes the 'll' a bit vulnerable to dropping, and then it is open to contamination by 'chancer', especially given the recent ones.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:45 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:31 amEDIT: In any case I wouldn’t merge them because the vowels are different: ch[æ]ncell[ɐ] vs tr[ɑː]nsf[əː].

Weirdly I have the opposite arrangement – ch[aː]ncellor and tr[æː]nsfer.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:01 pm**

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:44 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:31 amEDIT: In any case I wouldn’t merge them because the vowels are different: ch[æ]ncell[ɐ] vs tr[ɑː]nsf[əː].
If you say "trarnsfer", why don't you say "charncellor"?

My TRAP/BATH vowels have always been slightly confused, for some reason.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:14 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:01 pm
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:44 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:31 amEDIT: In any case I wouldn’t merge them because the vowels are different: ch[æ]ncell[ɐ] vs tr[ɑː]nsf[əː].
If you say "trarnsfer", why don't you say "charncellor"?
My TRAP/BATH vowels have always been slightly confused, for some reason.

Just checked the Wiki, and supposedly at least in SSBE both transfer and chancellor have [ɑː].

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:19 pm**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:14 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:01 pm
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:44 am If you say "trarnsfer", why don't you say "charncellor"?
My TRAP/BATH vowels have always been slightly confused, for some reason.
Just checked the Wiki, and supposedly at least in SSBE both transfer and chancellor have [ɑː].

On reflection, I do think I’ve heard people say ch[ɑː]ncellor. It’s just a word I personally don’t often use.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 11:24 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:01 pmMy TRAP/BATH vowels have always been slightly confused, for some reason.

That's pretty common in Australia. A friend of mine distinguishes between the verb /dæːns/ and the noun /dɑːns/, but the latter is only used for the name of an event (party, ball etc.). She'd still say "Get up and have a /dæːns/."

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm**

How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:33 pm**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

[ˈkʰe̞tʃɐp(ʰ)], as implied by the spelling. (Phonemically /ket͡ʃɐp/.)

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