Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:33 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

[ˈkʰe̞tʃɐp(ʰ)], as implied by the spelling. (Phonemically /ket͡ʃɐp/.)

Likewise, up to predictable differences between our accents.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:22 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:05 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 3:58 pmHow do you pronounce hundred when you're not paying attention (i.e. not the careful, formal pronunciation) or, in particular, if you are saying something like two hundred and fifty six?

"hunnert"

Yeah, here it's "hunnerd" or, for me, just "hunner", but I was not able to find this pronunciation in dictionaries anywhere, hence my question. Note that "hunnerd" can end in a voiceless stop or a flap, but the length of the vowel betrays that it is /d/.

Merriam Webster online dictionary lists "hunderd" as a possible pronunciation.

Does anyone say "bolth" or "olnly" for "both" and "only"? I don't have these pronunciations, but I have heard people insert a /l/ in these words not so infrequently.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:33 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

[ˈkʰe̞tʃɐp(ʰ)], as implied by the spelling. (Phonemically /ket͡ʃɐp/.)

I pronounce "ketchup" with the "e" sound in "fetch".

How do you pronounce "catch"? For me it rhymes with "fetch", not "match".

Space60 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 3:18 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:33 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

[ˈkʰe̞tʃɐp(ʰ)], as implied by the spelling. (Phonemically /ket͡ʃɐp/.)

I pronounce "ketchup" with the "e" sound in "fetch".

How do you pronounce "catch"? For me it rhymes with "fetch", not "match".

Ketchup rhymes with catch for me, but that rhymes with match rather than fetch.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 7:50 pm

Space60 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 3:18 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:33 pm

[ˈkʰe̞tʃɐp(ʰ)], as implied by the spelling. (Phonemically /ket͡ʃɐp/.)

I pronounce "ketchup" with the "e" sound in "fetch".

How do you pronounce "catch"? For me it rhymes with "fetch", not "match".

Ketchup rhymes with catch for me, but that rhymes with match rather than fetch.

It is interesting that we both use the same vowel in "ketchup" and "catch", but for you it is the vowel in "match" and for me it is the vowel in "fetch".

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

It could be due to the word "ketchup" failing to participate in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift and therefore winding up with the TRAP vowel for speakers with the shift.

A similar thing happened with the word "broad" in the Great Vowel Shift. It failed to participate in the shift and wound up having the THOUGHT vowel.

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

It could be due to the word "ketchup" failing to participate in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift and therefore winding up with the TRAP vowel for speakers with the shift.

A similar thing happened with the word "broad" in the Great Vowel Shift. It failed to participate in the shift and wound up having the THOUGHT vowel.

Yeah, that's probably it. Trying to pronounce it with /ɛ/ just feels like a spelling pronunciation to me.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:53 pm

Space60 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:29 pm How do you guys pronounce ketchup? I ask because I am used to it being pronounced with /æ/, which I realize as [ɛ], rather than with the /ɛ/ implied by the spelling, which I would pronounce as [ɜ].

It could be due to the word "ketchup" failing to participate in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift and therefore winding up with the TRAP vowel for speakers with the shift.

A similar thing happened with the word "broad" in the Great Vowel Shift. It failed to participate in the shift and wound up having the THOUGHT vowel.

Yeah, that's probably it. Trying to pronounce it with /ɛ/ just feels like a spelling pronunciation to me.

Variant spellings (see Wiktionary here suggest that both TRAP and DRESS pronunciations have been used for nearly as long as the word has been used in English. (Though the existence of DRESS pronunciations of catch means the spelling catchup is far from conclusive as to the vowel used.)

I never remember hearing anyone say "ketchup" with a vowel as low as [æ]. That pronunciation may have existed once, but I am not sure if it still exists in any varieties presently. Travis has TRAP in the word, but for him that TRAP vowel is [ɛ] and the DRESS vowel is [ɜ]. This seems to suggest that the word "ketchup" failed to shift in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift similar to how the word "broad" failed to shift in the Great Vowel Shift.

Hold up, Travis, your TRAP is just plain [ɛ]? It's not a diphthong?

Also I also have the NCVS and my <ketchup> is definitely DRESS (which is also [ɜ]-ish for me). It's homophonous with "catch-up" (as in "playing catch-up") for me.

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:36 pm Hold up, Travis, your TRAP is just plain [ɛ]? It's not a diphthong?

Yes, and it's weird! The standard TRAP in the dialect here is [ɛ] except before a nasal, where it is [ɛ̃ə̃]~[ẽə̃], but I didn't get the message and learned it as [ɛ̃] before a nasal, until I learned that everyone else here had [ɛ̃ə̃]~[ẽə̃] before a nasal as an adult. I now vary between [ɛ̃] and [ɛ̃ə̃]~[ẽə̃] before a nasal, but I normally have [ɛ] in other cases. Note that I have a funny sound change in crayon where I have /kræn/, which I learned as having [ɛ̃] rather than [ɛ̃ə̃]~[ẽə̃].

Huh! Interesting. I thought TRAP as a diphthong in NCVS was well-nigh universal. It definitely is diphthongized for me regardless of whether a nasal is involved or not.

Well, one note though - TRAP has changed to FACE unambiguously before /ŋ/, such that I do not think of it as TRAP, but this should be no surprise to you.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:20 pm Well, one note though - TRAP has changed to FACE unambiguously before /ŋ/, such that I do not think of it as TRAP, but this should be no surprise to you.

Same here. The vowel I use before the velar nasal is FACE in words like "bank", "thank", "rang", etc., but not in compounds like "pancake" where I have the TRAP vowel.

Space60 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:33 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:20 pm Well, one note though - TRAP has changed to FACE unambiguously before /ŋ/, such that I do not think of it as TRAP, but this should be no surprise to you.

Same here. The vowel I use before the velar nasal is FACE in words like "bank", "thank", "rang", etc., but not in compounds like "pancake" where I have the TRAP vowel.

Yes, I do not have this change in pancake either. (Note that I have [ŋ] in pancake but would consider it to be /n/.)

Interestingly enough, I don't have a nasal consonant in bank or thank, as I drop homorganic nasals before coda fortis plosives but preserve the vowel nasalization.

So how do you realize FACE then? I find it hard to even pronounce FACE + [ŋ] if I take FACE as [eɪ].


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 3:49 am So how do you realize FACE then? I find it hard to even pronounce FACE + [ŋ] if I take FACE as [eɪ].

Face for me is [e̞] (or [ɛ̝]?), a plain mid front vowel - I wouldn't even call it close-mid. In all actuality, my TRAP and my FACE are not all that far apart.

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:36 pm Hold up, Travis, your TRAP is just plain [ɛ]? It's not a diphthong?

Also I also have the NCVS and my <ketchup> is definitely DRESS (which is also [ɜ]-ish for me). It's homophonous with "catch-up" (as in "playing catch-up") for me.

"Ketchup" with Travis's TRAP vowel wouldn't sound odd to me at all. It is equivalent to how it sounds with a non NCVS DRESS vowel. "Ketchup" said with an NCVS TRAP diphthong or a non NCVS TRAP monophthong would sound strange to me. I don't think I have ever heard those pronunciations used by anyone.

Space60 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:33 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:20 pm Well, one note though - TRAP has changed to FACE unambiguously before /ŋ/, such that I do not think of it as TRAP, but this should be no surprise to you.

Same here. The vowel I use before the velar nasal is FACE in words like "bank", "thank", "rang", etc., but not in compounds like "pancake" where I have the TRAP vowel.

I have [æɪ̯] for æ / _n{k|g}$ but [eə] for æ / n${k|g}.

bank [bæɪ̯ŋk]
banker [bæɪ̯ŋkɚ]
thank [θæɪ̯ŋk]
rang [ɹæɪ̯ŋ]
pancake [peəŋkeɪ̯k̚] or [peənkeɪ̯k]
panko [peəŋkəw]
Bernanke [bɚˈnæɪ̯ŋki] ~ [bɚˈneəŋki] (I've heard both; I think closer transcriptions would be [b̥ɚˈnæ̃ɪ̯̃ŋk̟(ʰ)ˑi] and [b̥ɚˈnẽˑə̯̃ŋk̟ʰi])