United States Politics Thread 47

[rotting bones]

No, that's not the point I was trying to get at.

Then I don't know.

I was referring to the way you switched between "US media" and "Western media".

You are right. This is an ambiguity in my framing that I discussed in my last post.

[Raphael]

Or maybe the "America-Russia-China unipole" vs. whoever is still against it.

Now that is a framing with which I completely agree.

[Travis B.]

It's not my opinion. Widely used bias monitors consider the Guardian to be a fringe source.

[The Guardian] is considered a newspaper of record in the UK [… Its] readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion.

Ground News is a Canadian news aggregator which uses bias ratings from AllSides, MBFC and Ad Fontes Media, all of which are American. If it says the Guardian is a fringe left-wing source, I think that says more about the atrocious right-wing bias of American media than the Guardian.

(I also think rotting bones needs to be more concrete than "the West", given that the UK has been oscillating between membership and nonmembership of that category seemingly on a per-post basis. I was under the impression it was part of the West; did we accidentally leave it at the same time we left the European Union?)

Yeah. I was going to say...

[Travis B.]

Or maybe the "America-Russia-China unipole" vs. whoever is still against it.

Now that is a framing with which I completely agree.

In the case of Venezuela, though, it seems to be a case where there is not quite such a unipole, as Russia and China both have ties with Venezuela and both denounced Trump's adventurism there (quite hypocritically of course).

[rotting bones]

Or maybe the "America-Russia-China unipole" vs. whoever is still against it.

Now that is a framing with which I completely agree.

In the case of Venezuela, though, it seems to be a case where there is not quite such a unipole, as Russia and China both have ties with Venezuela and both denounced Trump's adventurism there (quite hypocritically of course).

The unipole is based on the 21st century far-right notion that the elites of all countries can be united on the basis of gloriously sending their subordinates into the meat grinder of war. Trump doesn't understand this, but then, he barely understands anything.

[rotting bones]

BTW, my opposition to value-based discourse is based on Edward Said's writings against Samuel Huntington.

[Travis B.]

Your idea of "moderated language" seems to be centered around your idiosyncratic notions of what specific words you approve or disapprove of to refer to this or that.

The idea that the articles that zompist referenced are "moderated language" as you put it because they don't use the rotting bones-required magic words when denouncing Trump's actions is nonsensical.

This lack of media literacy is the reason why I keep having to say things like: my opinions are grounded in scholarship.

The same scholarship that apparently assigned membership of the Guardian (a center-left newspaper of record) of all things to 'fringe' media, right.

Of course, the term 'hostage' has a specific meaning, and simply detaining people without cause is not it. If Israel tried to use people it had detained as leverage against the Palestinians (e.g. implied that they might execute them if the Palestinians resisted) then Israel's detention of Palestinians without cause would count as taking hostages, but as much as Israel's leadership is a bunch of génocidaires they did not do this.

Israel really does detain Palestinians as hostages. They say so explicitly.

That implies that Israel has threatened to punish Palestinian prisoners as retaliation for actions by other Palestinians. I'm trying to find evidence of this and failing, even though I have found plenty of evidence for other abuses of prisoners by Israel (e.g. the use of torture).

[rotting bones]

The same scholarship that apparently assigned membership of the Guardian (a center-left newspaper of record) of all things to 'fringe' media, right.

Ground News is the most popular media bias monitor I'm familiar with. Again, the Hindu is a newspaper of record that's routinely attacked as an anti-national fringe newspaper in India.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Israel really does detain Palestinians as hostages. They say so explicitly.

They return the detained Palestinians in prisoner exchanges with Hamas: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ly-needed/

Since October 2023, Israeli authorities have dramatically increased the detention of Palestinians, across the whole of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). According to Hamoked, as of 1 September 2025, 11,040 Palestinians are being held by Israeli authorities, some of whom have been in prison for decades. More than half – about 57% – are held without charge or trial either under administrative detention or under the Unlawful Combatants Law. According to the Jerusalem Legal Aid and Human Rights Center (JLAC), the bodies of at least 730 Palestinians are held by Israel as bargaining chips, some for decades.

Amnesty International is demanding that Israel immediately release the thousands of Palestinians it arbitrarily detains, end its abuses against Palestinian detainees, which include torture, starvation and sexual violence, and stop its long-standing illegal practice of withholding Palestinian bodies as bargaining chips.

“There can be no justification for seizing people as hostages nor for the prolonged arbitrary detention of individuals without charge or trial. The world must not turn its back on humanity,” said Agnès Callamard.

Regarding the alliances among far right countries, it may be that no overarching narrative is possible and each case needs to be treated separately.

[rotting bones]

In case you think this is a new thing, here's an article from 2009: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... rael-gaza/

[rotting bones]

Regarding the alliances among far right countries, it may be that no overarching narrative is possible and each case needs to be treated separately.

Especially since the people in question are imbeciles.

[Travis B.]

The same scholarship that apparently assigned membership of the Guardian (a center-left newspaper of record) of all things to 'fringe' media, right.

Ground News is the most popular media bias monitor I'm familiar with. Again, the Hindu is a newspaper of record that's routinely attacked as an anti-national fringe newspaper in India.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Again, the Guardian is a mainstream newspaper from everything I have seen (when you ignore the opinions of Fox News viewers or Torygraph readers), and the fact that Ground News says that they are 'fringe' reflects more on Ground News and where it gets its sources of information on 'bias' than anything.

Israel really does detain Palestinians as hostages. They say so explicitly.

They return the detained Palestinians in prisoner exchanges with Hamas: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ly-needed/

Since October 2023, Israeli authorities have dramatically increased the detention of Palestinians, across the whole of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). According to Hamoked, as of 1 September 2025, 11,040 Palestinians are being held by Israeli authorities, some of whom have been in prison for decades. More than half – about 57% – are held without charge or trial either under administrative detention or under the Unlawful Combatants Law. According to the Jerusalem Legal Aid and Human Rights Center (JLAC), the bodies of at least 730 Palestinians are held by Israel as bargaining chips, some for decades.

Amnesty International is demanding that Israel immediately release the thousands of Palestinians it arbitrarily detains, end its abuses against Palestinian detainees, which include torture, starvation and sexual violence, and stop its long-standing illegal practice of withholding Palestinian bodies as bargaining chips.

“There can be no justification for seizing people as hostages nor for the prolonged arbitrary detention of individuals without charge or trial. The world must not turn its back on humanity,” said Agnès Callamard.

Regarding the alliances among far right countries, it may be that no overarching narrative is possible and each case needs to be treated separately.

Okay, thanks for the link and quote.

[rotting bones]

Again, the Guardian is a mainstream newspaper from everything I have seen (when you ignore the opinions of Fox News viewers or Torygraph readers), and the fact that Ground News says that they are 'fringe' reflects more on Ground News and where it gets its sources of information on 'bias' than anything.

Ground News aggregates other bias monitors. They show Fox media on the far right.

I don't understand why you have so much faith in your opinions. My framing might not always be perfect, but I always start from the facts

Okay, thanks for the link and quote.

I still think there are materialist explanations for the rise of the far right worldwide even if a unified story is impossible in human terms. The subordinates are under the impression that fighting outsiders will improve their quality of life, which was ruined by the elites they are fighting for, etc.

[Travis B.]

Again, the Guardian is a mainstream newspaper from everything I have seen (when you ignore the opinions of Fox News viewers or Torygraph readers), and the fact that Ground News says that they are 'fringe' reflects more on Ground News and where it gets its sources of information on 'bias' than anything.

Ground News aggregates other bias monitors. They show Fox News on the far right.

I don't understand why you have so much faith in your opinions. My framing might not always be perfect, but I always start from the facts

From all appearances you start from hyperbole and proceed to move the goalposts every which way when said hyperbole is taken seriously and challenged and then your goalpost-moving is challenged in turn.

Also, your 'facts' tend to really be just your opinions and selectively-sourced views that you happen to hold as self-evident, without considering that they may not be so self-evident to the rest of the world.

[rotting bones]

Again, the Guardian is a mainstream newspaper from everything I have seen (when you ignore the opinions of Fox News viewers or Torygraph readers), and the fact that Ground News says that they are 'fringe' reflects more on Ground News and where it gets its sources of information on 'bias' than anything.

Ground News aggregates other bias monitors. They show Fox News on the far right.

I don't understand why you have so much faith in your opinions. My framing might not always be perfect, but I always start from the facts

From all appearances you start from hyperbole and proceed to move the goalposts every which way when said hyperbole is taken seriously and challenged and then your goalpost-moving is challenged in turn.

Also, your 'facts' tend to really be just your opinions and selectively-sourced views that you happen to hold as self-evident, without considering that they may not be so self-evident to the rest of the world.

I have sourced all my claims. I also think the ZBB's definition of what a goalpost is is based on pure ignorance.

[rotting bones]

Article on the new administration in Venezuela: https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... is-maduro/

[rotting bones]

I would go so far as to say that I define a fact as what the ZBB calls the moving of a goalpost. What the ZBB calls facts are what I call ignorance.

Going by the ZBB's definitions, the world would be a much better place if all facts were replaced by the moving of goalposts. That is the future I would call a utopia.

[zompist]

Nah. You just refuse to write clearly. If you're not understood, consider that that is your fault, not the fault of the six or so people attempting to make sense of you.

Stand by for more claims that rotting is the only leftist in the world, everyone else is ignorant, no one understands him, up is down, and up is also up.

BTW the article you cite is not what you say it is. (Something is not an "administration" when two of the people mentioned are in hiding.) You are not making a case that you can read a page and understand what is in it.

Nobody is out to get you, but you are doing yourself no favors. Take a break and come back when you can speak clearly.

[rotting bones]

BTW the article you cite is not what you say it is. (Something is not an "administration" when two of the people mentioned are in hiding.) You are not making a case that you can read a page and understand what is in it.

It's more like if I mention a specific feature that's relevant to my argument, the ZBB refuses to think of the general context in which the utterance makes sense. For example, if I say that pro-genocide arguments have been published in Western media, then the ZBB leaps to the conclusion that I'm saying anti-genocide arguments haven't been published in Western media. Humanity doesn't communicate in this fashion.

In this case, the article obviously mentions details about the new administration. Let's say I'm discussing a room, and I mention the furniture in the room. Any linguistic theory that says: "No! No! Furniture can't be a room! Moving goalposts! Moving goalposts!" is obviously incorrect and ought to be thrown out.

[Travis B.]

BTW the article you cite is not what you say it is. (Something is not an "administration" when two of the people mentioned are in hiding.) You are not making a case that you can read a page and understand what is in it.

It's more like if I mention a specific feature that's relevant to my argument, the ZBB refuses to think of the general context in which the utterance makes sense. For example, if I say that pro-genocide arguments have been published in Western media, then the ZBB leaps to the conclusion that I'm saying anti-genocide arguments haven't been published in Western media. Humanity doesn't communicate in this fashion.

In this case, the article obviously mentions details about the new administration. Let's say I'm discussing a room, and I mention the furniture in the room. Any linguistic theory that says: "No! No! Furniture can't be a room! Moving goalposts! Moving goalposts!" is obviously incorrect and ought to be thrown out.

Obviously you're the only human then.

[rotting bones]

Obviously you're the only human then.

Apparently. I should undertake a journey to find the rest of my species because no meaningful communication is possible without "moving goalposts" in this sense.