Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 2:07 pm**

"want": [wɒ̃ʔ(t)]
"wanna": [wɒ̃ɾ̃ə(ː)~[wɒ̃ːə̯̃]
"wash": [wɒʃ]
"water": [wɒɾʁ̩ˤ(ː)~[wɒːʁˤ]
"wasp": [wɑsp]
"watch": [wɒʔtʃ]
"watt": [wɑʔ(t)]
"wand": [wɑ̃ːnt], [wɑ̃ːnd] when followed by a vowel or semivowel
"wander": [ˈwɑ̃ːndʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
"wallet": [ˈwɑːɤ̯ɘʔ(t)]

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:53 pm**

[wɒnʔ]
[ˈwɒɾ̃ɜ]
[wɒʃ]
[ˈwʊːɾɜ]
[wɒsp̚ʔ]
[wɒʔtʃ]
[wɒt]
[wɒnd]
[ˈwɒndɜ]
[ˈwɒɫ̪ɜʔ]

Nothing too surprising there I'm afraid

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:04 pm**

[wɑnt]
[wɑɾ̃ə]
[wɑʃ]
[wɑɾɚ]
[wɑsp]
[wɑtʃ]
[wɑt]
[wɑnd]
[wɑndɚ]
[wɒˁɫᵻʔ]

Posted: **Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:48 am**

I've always assumed, and probably heard, that "mall" in "shopping mall", has the THOUGHT vowel. However, it seems that at least some American or Canadian people use an unrounded vowel, more akin to LOT. Is this a known phenomenon, or is my recollection just bad?

JAL

Posted: **Mon Jul 29, 2024 11:05 am**

jal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:48 am I've always assumed, and probably heard, that "mall" in "shopping mall", has the THOUGHT vowel. However, it seems that at least some American or Canadian people use an unrounded vowel, more akin to LOT. Is this a known phenomenon, or is my recollection just bad?

JAL

Mall does have the THOUGHT vowel. It just turns out that many NAE-speakers have an unrounded THOUGHT vowel, including both most cot-caught-merged speakers outside of Canada and eastern New England and some speakers with the NCVS such as my mother where both LOT and THOUGHT are unrounded but contrast w.r.t. frontness/backness.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:06 am**

Thanks! Didn't think of an unrounded THOUGHT. For us Dutchies the distinction between THOUGHT and LOT is very difficult to hear anyway, so unrounded versions are also hard to distinguish.

JAL

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:13 am**

fort and thought are pronounced exactly the same for me

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:15 am**

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:13 am fort and thought are pronounced exactly the same for me

Do you mean just the vowel, or the entire word?

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:38 am**

I wonder what the largest merger of lexical sets any major dialect has. I've got the NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE/CURE merger. NAm low vowels puzzle me but maybe there's like a LOT/CLOTH/THOUGHT/FATHER merger or something.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 9:03 am**

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:15 am
foxcatdog wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:13 am fort and thought are pronounced exactly the same for me
Do you mean just the vowel, or the entire word?

If they are a speaker of Estuary English or something adjacent, probably the entire word (since /θ/ > [f]). Also "fought", probably.

JAL

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:34 am**

jal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:06 am Thanks! Didn't think of an unrounded THOUGHT. For us Dutchies the distinction between THOUGHT and LOT is very difficult to hear anyway, so unrounded versions are also hard to distinguish.

In my mother's speech LOT is akin to Dutch /aː/ and THOUGHT is akin to Dutch /ɑ/ except that LOT isn't quite as far front (when I've heard Dutch /aː/ it has even sounded like English /æ/ to my ears) and there is no length distinction (as in most of NAE length is allophonic).

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:35 am**

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:15 am
foxcatdog wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:13 am fort and thought are pronounced exactly the same for me
Do you mean just the vowel, or the entire word?

I can easily see Estuary-speakers merging fort and thought completely myself.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:40 am**

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:38 am I wonder what the largest merger of lexical sets any major dialect has. I've got the NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE/CURE merger. NAm low vowels puzzle me but maybe there's like a LOT/CLOTH/THOUGHT/FATHER merger or something.

You could consider many NAE varieties as having LOT/CLOTH/THOUGHT/FATHER/PALM mergers, if one considers FATHER and PALM as distinct sets in some dialects (because for me FATHER has [a] and PALM has [ɑ] except adjacent to /r w h kw gw/ where they merge as [ɑ]).

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 12:15 pm**

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 6:38 am I wonder what the largest merger of lexical sets any major dialect has. I've got the NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE/CURE merger. NAm low vowels puzzle me but maybe there's like a LOT/CLOTH/THOUGHT/FATHER merger or something.

there is, it's basically everywhere west of the prairies

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 2:22 pm**

I just realized that I don't have raising of /æ/ to /eɪ/ before /ŋ/ in Vancouver, as I pronounce it with [ɛ̃] rather than the expected [ẽ̞].

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:21 pm**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:35 am I can easily see Estuary-speakers merging fort and thought completely myself.

And not just Estuarine. The merger of /θ/ and /f/ turns up all over Britain. I suspect glottal stop droppers would also merge thaw and four with them.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:23 am**

It's hard to analyse it because thinking about it changes it, but I'm pretty sure, for me, in casual speech:

fought = fort
thought = fault

And neither pair matches the other. I have no idea why this would be the case, because fought and thought definitely look like they should rhyme, and f and th mostly merge for me when I'm not enunciating. But if I say sentences that contain "thought" and intentionally pronounce it as either "fort" or "fault", it's the "fault" pronunciation that sounds more natural.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:04 am**

ratammer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:23 amAnd neither pair matches the other. I have no idea why this would be the case, because fought and thought definitely look like they should rhyme, and f and th mostly merge for me when I'm not enunciating. But if I say sentences that contain "thought" and intentionally pronounce it as either "fort" or "fault", it's the "fault" pronunciation that sounds more natural.

So what's the difference in vowel then between the pairs?

JAL

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:15 am**

ratammer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 7:23 am It's hard to analyse it because thinking about it changes it, but I'm pretty sure, for me, in casual speech:

fought = fort

thought = fault
And neither pair matches the other. I have no idea why this would be the case, because fought and thought definitely look like they should rhyme, and f and th mostly merge for me when I'm not enunciating. But if I say sentences that contain "thought" and intentionally pronounce it as either "fort" or "fault", it's the "fault" pronunciation that sounds more natural.

Are you not horse-hoarse merged?

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2024 1:59 pm**

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 10:15 am Are you not horse-hoarse merged?

Horse and hoarse are homophones for me.

jal wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 8:04 am So what's the difference in vowel then between the pairs?

I'm not good at IPA so here's a clip: "fort" then "fault". Bear in mind this is me intentionally trying to emulate casual speech - if I was enunciating, "thought" would have a th sound and would definitely rhyme with "fought" (which would still be identical to "fort"), and "fault" would have a distinct L sound. I can't explain the difference, I just know what sounds right to me.

Zompist Bboard Again

The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

Re: The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread