Zompist Bboard Again

Ryusenshi, did you send an English translation along with your French one? Maybe we can just use that.

I did, but hopefully there is someone else who understands French.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:53 amI did, but hopefully there is someone else who understands French.

I read French fine (I'm catching up on Flaubert at the moment) but I thought there was some objection to having me work on both texts?

I contacted Nerulent about filling in for Yiuel. Working on the assumption that sending him the Team 2 text causes him to cease to exist (which seems only logical at this point), I will keep in touch with other participants as the need arises. There's no objection to someone working on both texts, if necessary, but we don't want the same person working on the same chain twice, which is why I didn't ask vijay to do it. Although, he' probably forgotten the whole thing by now.

Actually, I haven't, tbh. I frequently read my translation along with the original text and occasionally contemplate making an audio recording of my Turkish translation.

I thought maybe Nerulent hadn't done anything for our team yet, but I got misled by some of the earlier posts.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:16 pm I contacted Nerulent about filling in for Yiuel. Working on the assumption that sending him the Team 2 text causes him to cease to exist [...]

I can confirm I still exist although the translation will have to wait at least a day or two for the weekend.

I don't think we'll seriously quibble about a day or two after all this!

OK, Team 2 results are up! Go the first post and scroll down.

(by the way, the first post is kind of long, so I'd like to put a link at the top to the start of team 2, but this forum doesn't support the [anchor] function. Does anybody know how you can make links using the tools that are available?)

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:10 am(by the way, the first post is kind of long, so I'd like to put a link at the top to the start of team 2, but this forum doesn't support the [anchor] function. Does anybody know how you can make links using the tools that are available?)

I can assure you that without an extension of that sort, it is impossible to link to a specific part of a post. You can put the teams a separate post each though, and then link to the second post at the beginning of the first...

Team 2, the “Duke Nukem Forever” of language telephones, is finally ready!

Here is the starting text. It's a short exert from a science fiction story that I found in... I believe Galaxy Magazine circa 1951? I chose it because the word play and dialogue seemed tricky even though the vocabulary was baby level. Turns out, it was nearly impossible to maintain accurately.

Suddenly the situation struck him as fantastically ridiculous—there was Pat carefully relating the story of Little Red Riding Hood to a humorless monstrosity of the night-side of Venus! The girl cast him a perplexed glance as he roared into a gale of laughter.
"Tell him the one about the traveling man and the farmer's daughter!" he said, choking. "See if you can get a smile from him!"
She joined his laughter. "But it's really a serious matter," she concluded. "Imagine it, Ham! Intelligent life on the dark side! Or are you intelligent?" she asked suddenly of the thing on the ice.
"I am intelligent," it assured her. "I'm intelligently intelligent."
"At least you're a marvelous linguist," said the girl. "Did you ever hear of learning English in half an hour, Ham? Think of that!" Apparently her fear of the creature had vanished.
"Well; let's make use of it," suggested Ham. "What's your name, friend?" There was no reply.
"Of course," put in Pat. "He can't tell us his name until we give it to him in English, and we can't do that because—Oh, well, let's call him Oscar, then. That'll serve."
"Good enough. Oscar, what are you, anyway?"
"Human, I'm a man."
"Eh? I'll be damned if you are!"
"Those are the words you've given me. To me I am a man to you."
"Wait a moment. 'To me I am—' I see, Pat. He means that the only words we have for what he considers himself are words like man and human. Well, what are your people, then?"
"People."
"I mean your race. What race do you belong to?"
"Human."

First vijay translated the text into Turkish.
Next akam chinjir translated the text into Old Chinese. Or Classical Chinese. I was assured it's the same, but given the level of error, I am suspicious.
Suddenly the situation struck him as extremely funny. There was Pat, carefully telling the story of Little Red Riding Hood to a dejected monster of Venus's night side! While he was laughing up a storm, the girl gave him a confused look.
"Tell it the one about the traveler and the farmer's daughter!" he gasped. "Try to make it laugh!"
The girl laughed with him. "But it is a serious matter," she stopped. "Ham, imagine! Intelligent life on the dark side! And are you intelligent?" she suddenly asked the thing on the ice.
"I am intelligent," it assured her. "Wisely intelligent."
"Anyway a wonderful linguist," the girl said. "Ham, do you know anything to teach it English for half an hour? Think about it!" It seemed her fear of the creature had left.
"Well let's try," Ham suggested. "Friend, what is your name?" There was no answer.
"Of course," Pat interjected. "Since it cannot tell us and we cannot name it until we give it an English name---anyway, in that case let its name be Oscar. That'll do."
"Okay. In that case, Oscar, what are you?"
"Human. I am a person."
"Oh? I am very surprised if you are human!"
"Those are words you gave to me. I think to you I am a person."
"A moment. "I think to you---" Pat, I understand. It's that in order to think what it is, it only has our words, like person, human. In that case, what is your people?"
"People."
"And your race. What is your race?"
"Human."

Zompist took on the task of translating the Old Chinese into Portuguese.
Suddenly his situation made him laugh. This strange sorrowful beast of the Great White’s darkness, and Nyabat was carefully telling it the story of Little Red Riding Hood. Tsegam laughed heartily, as Nyabat looked at him in confusion.
Tsegam gasped, saying, "Why not the story of the traveler and the farmer's daughter? Try to make it laugh.”
Nyabat laughed with him, then stopped. She said, "Yes, but this a serious matter. Tsegam, please think about it. There is a sentient being amid the darkness!"
Nyabat first looked at the creature above the ice, and asked it, “Are you sentient too?”
It said, “I certainly am sentient. I have sentience and wisdom.”
Nyabat said, “Even if you have no other one, you are essentially a language learner. Tsegam, have you heard of someone being able to temporarily teach English? Please worry about that.”
She seemed not to fear the creature any longer.
Tsegam had to say, “Yes, I’ll try. What is your name?"
No reply.
Nyabat said, “Right! I didn’t use an English name for it, so there is no answer, and I don’t have words. So, yes, its name will be Yanquo. That will do.”
He said, “Good. So, Yanquo, you are what?”
It said, “A human. I am a scholar.”
He said, "Hey! If you are a human, that is very strange."
It said, “This is indeed the name you gave me. I myself am. You are a scholar."
He said, “What did you say? ‘Myself am, you are a’… which is…. Nyabat, I am now clear. If you want what’s done, so there are humans, and there are scholars, he has the name I gave, and that’s all. If so, please, what are people?”
It said, "They are people."
He said, "If a human has offspring, what are they?"
It said, "They're humans."

In a parallel move to Team 1, ser de-aged the Portuguese back to Latin.
Suddenly, his situation made him laugh. That strange sad beast from the darkness of the Great White [sic: no verb], and Nhabat was carefully telling him the story of Little Red Riding Hood. Chigam laughed warmly, while Nhabat, confused, looked at him.
Chigam sighed, saying, "Why not the story of the traveler and the farmer's daughter? Try to make [me] laugh."
Nhabat laughed with him, and then she stopped. She said, "Yes, but that is a serious matter. Chigam, please, think about that. There is an intelligent being in the middle of the darkness!"
Nhabat looked first at the creature above the ice, and asked him [the creature], "Are you also intelligent?"
He said, "It's true that I am intelligent. I am intelligent and wise."
Nhabat said, "although you don't have anything else, you're essentially a language learner. Chigam, have you heard of anyone able to teach English for a short time? Please, be concerned about that."
She seemed to not be afraid of the creature anymore.
Chigam had to say, "I'll try, yes. What's your name?"
No answer.
Nhabat said, "Yes! I didn't use a name in English for him, therefore there is no answer, and I don't have words. So, yes, his name will be Yanquo. That'll do."
He said, "Alright. So, Yanquo, what are you?"
"I am a human. I am an expert."
"Hey! If you're a human, you look very weird."
"This is really the name that you gave me. I am myself. You are an expert."
He said, "What are you saying? 'I am myself, you are an...' What is... Nhabat, now I understand. If you want what is already done, then there are humans and there are experts, he has the name I gave him, and that is all. So, please, what is a person?" [Lit.: what are people?]
"A person is a person." [Lit.: they are people.]
"If a man has a progeny, what is he?"
"They are humans."

After that mistakes were made by someone at sometime, and long story short, Ryusenshi translated Latin to French about three and a half months later.
Unexpectedly, it was time to make him laugh. Nhabat was speaking cautiously about this somber and unknown beast, originating from the darkness of the Great White, and about the story of the Girl with the Red Hood. [*] Chigam laughed warmly, while Nhabat looks[**] at him mysteriously.
Chigam took his breath, and then said "Why don't you bring up the story of the traveller and the farmer's daughter? Try to make me laugh."
Nhabat laughed with him, then stopped. "I could do this", she said, "but this is serious. Chigam, I ask you, think about this. There is indeed something gifted with reason in the middle of the darkness!"
Nhabat, looking first at the beast standing over the frost, asking him "Is it possible", she said, "that you are gifted with reason?"
"It is true", he answered, "I am gifted with reason. I am indeed endowed with reason and intelligence."
"Even if", said Nhabat, "you had nothing else, you are really knowledgeable about languages. Chigam, have you heard about anyone who could teach the English tongue for some time? I ask you, look after it."
Nhabat seemed no longer afraid of the beast.
Chigam urgently said "I will try, I've heard you. What's your name?"
There was no answer.
"Right!" said Nhabat, "Since I have used no English name to call him, there is no answer, and I don't have one to say. [***] His name shall thus be Yanquo. It will suffice."
"He has well. So, Yanquo" said Chigam, "what are you?"
"I am human. I am an expert."
"Hey! If you are human, you surely look surprising."
"This is truly the name that you gave me. I am myself. You are an expert."
"What did you say?" he said. "'I am myself, you are...' What... Nhabat, now I understand. If you whant that which happened, then they are human, they are experts, and the name is what you gave him: that is all.[****] Now, I ask, what are men?"
"They are men."
"If a man has a progeny, what is it?"
"They are humans."[/i]

Then the Gods decided they hadn't toyed with us enough and ultimately Nerulent brought us home by translating the French back into English. Honestly, I'm kind of scared to show it to the public, because apparently looking at this text makes people disappear without a trace.

Unexpectedly, it was time to make him laugh. Nhabat was speaking by means of the wild, dark and unknown, beast, which came out of the darkness of the Great White, and from the story of the Girl with the Red Hood. Chigam laughed with warmth, while Nhabat watched him mysteriously.
Chigam took a breath, then he said, "why don't you tell the story of the traveller and the farmer's daughter? Try to make me laugh.
Nhabat laughed with him, then stopped herself. "I will do so," she said, "but this is serious. Chigam, I ask you, think on this. There is indeed something gifted with reason in the darkness!"
Nhabat, looking for the first time at the beast standing on the frost, asked it, "is it true that you are gifted with reason?"
"It is true," it answered, "that I am gifted with reason. I possess reason and intelligence."
"Besides," Nhabat said, "even if you have nothing else, you are indeed a knower of language. Chigam, would you have heard about someone who could teach the English language some time? I implore you to take care of this." Nhabat was no longer scared of the beast.
"I will try," Chigam said hurriedly, "I heard you. What is your name?"
There was no answer.
"Well!" said Nhabat. "Because I didn't use any name in English to name it, there wasn't any response, and I have nothing to say. Its name will henceforth be Yanquo. It will suffice."
"That works well," said Chigam. "So, Yanquo, what are you?"
"I am human. I am an expert."
"Huh! If you are human, you look really astonishing.
"It is really just the name you gave me. I am myself. You are an expert."
"So what are you saying?" he asked. "'I am myself, you are...' So what... Nhabat, now I understand. If you desire what has happened, then they are humans, they are experts, and its name is what I have given it; that is all. Well then, I ask, what are men?"
"These are men."
"If a man, has descendants, what are they?"
"They are humans."

Sorry you'll have to provide your own commentary to this one. Thank you all so much for contributing, and for being so patient!

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:15 amOK, well, same thing. How do I do that without the anchor tool?

Hover the mouse over a post's subject and look at the link it has. You can then use that link in other posts.

The subject of this post is "Re: Language Telephone - TEAM 1 RESULTS!". Here is a self-referential link to this very post.

I think my favourite part in mine was finding what I still think is a pretty ideomatic way to say "the dark side of Venus" in c. 3rd century BC Chinese: 太白之陰. 太白 understandably became "Great White," but it's a classical name for Venus; 陰 is the yin of yin and yang, and in one of its uses is supposed to have referred specifically to the shaded side of a hill.

My least favourite part was the hours I put into figuring out how to say "Friend, what's your name?" I eventually decided that the use of "friend" here (using it to sort of ingratiate oneself with a stranger) was too idiomatic to make any sense in classical Chinese, so I decided to substitute an interjection, which was its own set of problems. And would you believe that there's no attested case of someone asking another person's name in pre-Qin Chinese? I don't quite believe it myself, but I looked pretty hard.

The names obviously transformed. I tried to be a bit clever, using honorifics to imply gender and choosing characters whose pronunciation (as reconstructed by Baxter and Sagart) was about right, but zompist would probably have had to read my mind to figure that out.

And obviously the "human"/"man" bit didn't translate at all, no surprise there. I think my idea was that this was a "human"/"person" distinction---a biological vs a moral category. But classical Chinese 人 covers both things, so... In retrospect it probably would've been better just to use 人 twice.

There were clearly places where my Turkish faltered, though to be honest not as many places as I might have expected.

Also, I really underestimated how much of a problem it would be that I had no bilingual dictionaries into classical Chinese.

I'm rather surprised how well we did! I mean, yes, parts of it are weird and some pronouns are wrong, but the basic situation was maintained and it doesn't just become nonsense. And it's a pretty odd situation to begin with, with some very science-fictional messing with language... it's a great choice of initial text! And many thanks to Moose and all participants, this was fun.

I did mess up on 太白... I did look at a few dictionaries and didn't see anything about Venus. In my defense, "the dark side of Venus" is, I think, a concept which no Old Chinese speaker (or anyone in the world at that time) would have understood!

It looks like Akam meant 士 as "man", but I used the more common sense of 'scholar'.

For the names, I was aware 子 is a common title, but I was only used to it occurring after the name, so that's my ignorance. It was obvious enough that the second syllables of 子酣 and 女撥 were phonetic transliterations (the literal meanings made no sense). I just treated both syllables as transliterations, using Schuessler's reconstructions. I had some fun approximating them to Portuguese pronunciation.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:57 am It looks like Akam meant 士 as "man", but I used the more common sense of 'scholar'.

I was really stretching there---thinking of 士 as someone with a position, or anyway of the right social status to hold a position, which was a bit suggested by some glosses/examples I found for "adam" in a Turkish dictionary I was consulting. But it was definitely a case where my Turkish wasn't good enough for me to make a sensible decision.

I noticed that my translation (from Turkish) into English is missing from both posts:

All of a sudden, the situation seemed extraordinarily ridiculous to him—there was Pat carefully explaining the story of Little Red Riding Hood to an unhappy monster of the nightside of Venus! That girl cast him a glance as if confused when he roared into a gale of laughter.
"Tell him the joke about the traveling man and the farmer's daughter!" he said while choking. "Try to make him laugh!"
The girl laughed together with him. "But it really is a serious thing/matter," she finished/concluded. "Imagine, Hal! Intelligent life on the dark side! Or are you intelligent?" she suddenly asked the thing on the ice.
"I am intelligent," it assured her. "I'm wisely intelligent."
"At any rate, you're a great linguist," the girl said. "Have you ever heard of such a thing as learning English in half an hour, Ham? Think about that!" Apparently, her fear of the creature was gone.
"Okay, let's use it (to our advantage)," Ham suggested. "What's your name, friend?" There was no answer.
"Of course," Pat interrupted. "He can't tell us until we name him in English, and we can't name him because—anyway, in that case, may/let his name be Oscar. That's enough."
"Good. In any case, Oscar, what are you?"
"(A) human, I am a man."
"Huh? I'd be very surprised if you were a human!"
"Those are the words you have given me. According to me, I'm a human according to you."
"Wait a minute. 'According to me, according to you—' I understand, Pat. He means we only have words like man (and) human for what he considers himself. Well then, what are your people?"
"People."
"I mean your race. What is your race?"
"Human."

EDIT: I think gülünç tends to mean something more like 'ridiculous' rather than 'funny' per se. Compare 可笑 in modern(?) Chinese (or in Mandarin at any rate).

A few things really hurt my understanding of the text. The switch from "Venus" to "Great White", and the transliteration of the character names, made the story switch from sci-fi to fantasy, which is why I was reluctant to correct "Girl with the Red Hood" to "Little Red Riding Hood" (contemporary characters would know the fairy tale, but conworld characters wouldn't).

Also, I misunderstood the second sentence: I thought that Pat/Nhabat was talking about the beast, instead of talking to it. Which made the next few lines quite confusing: it seems that Nhabat is talking about a legend, Chigam laughs and doesn't believe her... and then suddenly the beast is among them.