Zompist Bboard Again

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:29 pm

Zju wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:50 pm On the other hand, I'm still not sure why one couldn't store that information as slices and whatnot.

Sure, you can do this. I just think it's way harder than people are thinking.

Try this: take a steak. Cut it carefully into slices or cubes of the size you think is best for your replicator.

Congrats, you've invented steak tartare. Which tastes different from an uncut steak.
[...]
I granted the slices idea in the original post— I said you could use 1 cm³ samples instead. I think if people are thinking "all I need are ten molecules", they're fooling themselves— most dishes have more than ten ingredients, and none of them are homogenous in a cooked dish.
...

I see I might've not explained my idea completely. The basic premise of a replicator is that it can precisely piece together atoms precisely to form a steak. Stitching together vertical steak bars to form a steak is an easier task than that. A vertical bar of a cooked steak is already unhomogenous, so it's storing that information.

I don't know where you got that "all I need are ten molecules" from. Most dishes also have repeating ingredients (especially salads), of which you can store only a few pieces, and again, save up a lot of space.

Zju wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:04 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:29 pm I granted the slices idea in the original post— I said you could use 1 cm³ samples instead. I think if people are thinking "all I need are ten molecules", they're fooling themselves— most dishes have more than ten ingredients, and none of them are homogenous in a cooked dish.
...

I see I might've not explained my idea completely. The basic premise of a replicator is that it can precisely piece together atoms precisely to form a steak. Stitching together vertical steak bars to form a steak is an easier task than that. A vertical bar of a cooked steak is already unhomogenous, so it's storing that information.

I don't know where you got that "all I need are ten molecules" from. Most dishes also have repeating ingredients (especially salads), of which you can store only a few pieces, and again, save up a lot of space.

This is kind of why I lost interest in the discussion: I kept getting responses that were already addressed in what I've said. Look at the quote above, which is from my original blog post: "you could use 1 cm³ samples instead". That's not interestingly different from your slices or repeating ingredients or whatever. This is imaginary tech, so it hardly matters if you think we could use 0.5 cm³ instead.

The other thing is, the question is not if you can make food in the replicator, or even whether you can make convincing, tasty food. For the purposes of the discussion, I grant that. It's whether people can tell replicator food from non-replicator food.

And it seems obvious to me that people can detect overly homogenous food. This comes up in two ways.

One, between dishes. You replicate a pad thai, and it's great. You do it tomorrow, and it's exactly the same. Next day, same thing. Humans are omnivores, we really don't like the same thing every day-- we get sick of it.

Two, within a dish. Does every bit of your steak taste exactly the same? No-- the temperature varies vertically, but also horizontally. The outside is seared more, also probably cooler. There's more fat in some bites than in others. This is not at all mysterious! It's why hamburger (which is homogenized) costs way less than a steak. In your salad, the "same" items vary too. Some got more dressing. Some leaves are a little more wilted. French fries are pretty uniform, but some are crispier, some are starchier, some got more ketchup or salt than others. Maybe you don't care much-- that's not the question. The question is only, could someone tell?

And again, I have no problem if, to save data and complexity, Federation starships make every French fry identical. Maybe half the crew doesn't notice, and half the rest don't care. The rest sigh and say the fries are OK but not as good as back home.

(Also, obviously, homogeneity is a virtue, until it isn't. Fast food franchises are built on the idea that every meal will taste about the same. That's why some people love fast food, and some people like it sometimes. But some of us don't want it for every meal.)

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:11 amschlaugh

Never heard of this before, looks interesting!

Hey, Zompist, on this page you wrote:

The actual English cognate of Hindi lu:t. is 'leaf'

but as far as I know this is not the case. "Leaf" derives ultimately from PIE *lewbʰ- (with something to do with plants) while lūṭ is (apparently) from PIE *(H)rewp- "to break off, apart, away". Where does this claim come from?

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:28 am Hey, Zompist, on this page you wrote:

The actual English cognate of Hindi lu:t. is 'leaf'

but as far as I know this is not the case. "Leaf" derives ultimately from PIE *lewbʰ- (with something to do with plants) while lūṭ is (apparently) from PIE *(H)rewp- "to break off, apart, away". Where does this claim come from?

Almost certainly from Hock, who is a specialist in Indic. Unfortunately I can't find the details either in Hock's book or in the handout (from a CLS meeting) which that page reflects.

Kinda weird to keep in mind that, at any given moment, there are a lot of people around for whom, if the world doesn't end first, the current time will later be the time of their childhood memories.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:14 pm You see, I just ordered the Middle East Construction Kit. It's apparently not available on amazon.de yet, so I bought it directly on amazon.com . (My desire to get it as quickly as possible, and the uncertainty about whether it will ever be available on amazon.de , were stronger than my desire to safe money.)

I tend to wait for Construction Kits to be available through Barnes&Noble...soon, i hope, this one will also be obtainable.

The storm at my place is now intense enough that I'm started to be seriously worried about being too physically close to the next windows.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:26 pm The storm at my place is now intense enough that I'm started to be seriously worried about being too physically close to the next windows.

When that happens where I am, its best to either hide under bedcovers and sleep it out, or go to the center of my house (a bathroom) and stay there.

Keep safe!

Thank you! It's very calm today.

There's something weird going on with the water pressure in my bathroom. It's a good deal lower than usual.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:01 am There's something weird going on with the water pressure in my bathroom. It's a good deal lower than usual.

The problems have disappeared as mysteriously as they had appeared.

Water is a mysterious element, even with (or especially with?) the science of fluid dynamics trying to help.

fusijui wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:39 pm Water is a mysterious element, even with (or especially with?) the science of fluid dynamics trying to help.

That would be because it isn’t an element in the first place.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:44 am

fusijui wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:39 pm Water is a mysterious element, even with (or especially with?) the science of fluid dynamics trying to help.

That would be because it isn’t an element in the first place.

The semantic domain of 'element' is wider than just 'chemical element', which is what I assume you're thinking of.

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:04 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:44 am

fusijui wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:39 pm Water is a mysterious element, even with (or especially with?) the science of fluid dynamics trying to help.

That would be because it isn’t an element in the first place.

The semantic domain of 'element' is wider than just 'chemical element', which is what I assume you're thinking of.

As a chemistry major I can state quite definitely that for me, when referring to chemical compounds, this is the only meaning of ‘element’ I understand. (Um, unless one is talking about alchemy. Or using it in a non-chemical context. Or using it in a chemical context for a large system. Or a small system with enough different components. Semantics is complicated.)

'Sperg on, man.

Nonsense. According to the scientific educational film Look Around You - Water, water has the chemical symbol H20 and sits on the periodic table of elements between Red (chemical symbol Rd) and iodine (chemical symbol I). Everyone ought to know that.

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:19 am Nonsense. According to the scientific educational film Look Around You - Water, water has the chemical symbol H20 and sits on the periodic table of elements between Red (chemical symbol Rd) and iodine (chemical symbol I). Everyone ought to know that.

Quite right. What do they teach the children nowadays?

Does anyone else have the impression that the ZBB's system for using emails to notify people of new posts has been acting weird lately? Looks to me like I keep getting notifications for posts that aren't there. OK, perhaps some mysterious force is mysteriously deleting new posts, or perhaps it's somehow become a lot more common recently that people get second thoughts about their posts and delete them immediately after posting them. But, in any case, something weird seems to be going on.