Zompist Bboard Again

What about "sleuths", "sluices" and "slaugh"?

How do you pronounce sorry? I ask because I am familiar with three different pronounciations from right here in southeastern Wisconsin.

I pronounce "sorry" like "sari".

What about:

"sorrow"
"tomorrow"
"borrow"

My non-native pronunciation has "sorrow" and "borrow" rhyming (using LOT, probably?), but "tomorrow" has more like... STRUT?


JAL

In my non-native pronunciation, "sorrow", "tomorrow", and "borrow" all rhyme.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:44 pm In my non-native pronunciation, "sorrow", "tomorrow", and "borrow" all rhyme.

In my native pronunciation, they do too.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 7:28 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:44 pm In my non-native pronunciation, "sorrow", "tomorrow", and "borrow" all rhyme.

In my native pronunciation, they do too.

Same with me, but they do not take the same vowel for me as sorry (but they do for my daughter much of the time). My native pronunciation of those words have [ɑ] but sorry in my native idiolect has [ɔ]. However, many people here have [ɒ] in sorry (a pronunciation which I now use in alternation with [ɔ]), which is odd because [ɒ] typically cannot precede /r/ in the dialect here except due to consonant elision and vowel assimilation (e.g. in all right when not pronounced with [a] or in water).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:07 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 3:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 3:41 pm About /æ/ before nasals, how do you pronounce pancake or mancave?

pancake [peəŋkeɪk] (~ [-nk-])
man cave [meənkeɪv]
panko [peəŋkəw]

For Bernanke I've heard both [bɚˈnæe̯ŋki] and [bɚˈneəŋki]

I personally have:

pancake [ˈpʰɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆ŋˌkʰe̞ʔk]~[ˈpʰɛ̃ŋˌkʰe̞ʔk]
mancave [ˈmɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆ŋˌkʰe̞ːf]~[ˈmɛ̃ŋˌkʰe̞ːf]
Bernanke [b̥ʁ̩̃ːˈnɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆ŋki(ː)]~[b̥ʁ̩̃ːˈnɛ̃ŋki(ː)]

Note for all these words I have /æ/, unlike bank, blank, and plank where I have /eɪ/ ─ for me the distinction is phonemic. (It's not a syllabification thing either, though, as I have h[ẽ̞]nky-p[ẽ̞]nky, for instance.)

hanky-panky would have [æɪ] for me; my guess is that the syllabification is /hænk.ɨj.pænk.ɨj/ vs. /pæn.kejk/ (and unclear /bər.næn.kɨj/ ~ /bər.nænk.ɨj/), with some morpheme boundary sensitivity producing effectively /bænk.ər/ for banker [bæɪŋkɚ].

I think the distinction is predictable for me - [æɪ] is an allophone of /æ/ before coda voiced velars, for complicated definitions of "coda voiced velar". The analysis I currently prefer (because it eliminates both /eə/ and /ŋ/) is that there are two nasal place assimilation processes, one obligatorily applying within a syllable (i.e. in a coda cluster) before æ-breaking and one optionally applying across syllable boundaries after æ-breaking.

/bænk.ər pæn.kejk/
1. bæŋk.ər pæn.kejk < obligatory within-cluster nasal assimilation
2. bæɪŋk.ər pæn.kejk < æ-breaking to æɪ before coda voiced velars
3. bæɪŋk.ər peən.kejk < æ-breaking to eə before nasals (other than ŋ because æŋ was already eliminated - æ can't end a syllable and ŋ only appears immediately following a vowel, so the only possible æŋ sequences are those in which æ appears in a syllable closed by ŋ)
4. bæɪŋk.ər peəŋ.kejk < optional nasal assimilation across a syllable boundary

(Translate as needed into your orderless/syllable-less theoretical framework of choice.)

Now that I'm thinking about it, though, words like ingress (which I think can't have [n] for me, although input can) might still require /ŋ/, or a tautosyllabicity epicycle...

Space60 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 2:19 pm "sorrow"
"tomorrow"
"borrow"

/sɑrəw/ [sɒɚ̯oʊ]
/təmɑrəw/ (in set phrases optionally /dəmɑrəw/) [tʰəˈmɒɚ̯oʊ] ~ [tʰmɒʴə̯]
/bɑrəw/ [sɒɚ̯oʊ]

"sorrow" [ˈsɒɻʷˤɞy̯]
"tomorrow" [tˢɜˈmäɻʷˤɞy̯] ~ [-ˈmäɻʷˤɜ]
"borrow" [ˈbɒɻʷˤɞy̯]

The words "tomorrow", "borrow", and "sorrow" likely resisted the shift from the LOT vowel to the NORTH vowel for most Americans that occurred in words like "forest" and "horrible" because the resulting vowel would be really close to the last vowel in the words. "Sorry" also tended to resist the shift due to being related to the word "sorrow".

How do you pronounce "cabinet"? I pronounce it with two syllables "cab net".

Space60 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:52 pm How do you pronounce "cabinet"? I pronounce it with two syllables "cab net".

/ˈkæbənət/ [ˈkʰɛːbɘ̃ːɾ̃ɘʔ(t)]

Space60 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:52 pmHow do you pronounce "cabinet"? I pronounce it with two syllables "cab net".

Interesting. I could vision such an extreme reduction of unstressed vowels, but I wouldn't expect it in "cabinet". If I were to reduce the second vowel that much, I think it would still be three syllables for me, but with a syllabic nasal: [kʰæ.bn̩.ɪ̞t] or the like.


JAL

[ˈkˣæb.nɜʔ(t)]

Having three syllables just sounds pretentious to me

jal wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 7:07 am

Space60 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:52 pmHow do you pronounce "cabinet"? I pronounce it with two syllables "cab net".

Interesting. I could vision such an extreme reduction of unstressed vowels, but I wouldn't expect it in "cabinet". If I were to reduce the second vowel that much, I think it would still be three syllables for me, but with a syllabic nasal: [kʰæ.bn̩.ɪ̞t] or the like.


JAL

It is very common in "cabinet". Merriam-Webster online lists the two syllable pronunciation first for "cabinet" and the sound sample gives a two syllable pronunciation.

How do you pronounce?

"maintenance"
"broccoli"
"grocery"
"camera"

I have medial schwa elision in all of those.

cabinet /kæbnɨt/
maintenance /mejntənɨns/ [meɪnʔn̩ɨns]
broccoli /braklɨj/
grocery /grʌwsrɨj/
camera /kæmrə/

maintenance /ˈmeɪnt(ə)nəns/ [ˈmẽ̞ʔ(n̩ː)nɘ̃nts]
broccoli /ˈbrɑk(ə)li/ [ˈb̥ʁˤɑk(ɯː)ɰi(ː)]
grocery /ˈɡroʊʃri/ [ˈɡ̥ʁˤo̞ʃɻʁi(ː)] (the [ɻʁ] is coarticulated)
camera /ˈkæmrə/ [ˈkʰɛ̃ːmʁˤə(ː)]

Note that I also pronounce cabinet as /ˈkæbənət/ [ˈkʰɛːbn̩ːnɘʔ(t)].

Space60 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 8:25 am"maintenance"
"broccoli"
"grocery"
"camera"

I have medial schwa elision in all of those.

I probably elide it in "maintenance" (with a nasal release of the "t"), definitely in "camera", definitely not in "broccoli", and optionally in "grocery". But I'm not a native speaker, so my contribution is of limited value :D.


JAL

What about "nk"

The primary school my kids go to teach "nk" as "special friends" by which they just mean two letters one sound - a digraph. I am wholly unconvinced. I think it's two letters two sounds.

Even if (like me I think) link becomes ling-k rather than lin-k with a bit of nasalisation prior to the "k", this is just allophony in action. It's still two sounds