Zompist Bboard Again

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 2:26 pm

alice wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 1:57 pm I don't know if this has appeared in the preceding 96 pages, but anyway.

What vowel do you have in the final syllable of difficult? I used to know someone who had a very distinct and distinctive /ʌ/, and my own is somewhere between /ɑ/ and a vocalic /l/. It is peculiarly difficult to determine the intention of the LORD here, since there are very few rhymes for this word which are at all common.

I have /ˈdɪfɪˌkʊlt/

I similarly have /ˈdɪfəˌkʊlt/ [ˈd̥ɪ̈fɘˌkʰʊːʔ(t)/.

I have no vowel in the final syllable

[ˈdifəkʰɫ̩ʷʔ(t)]

Darren wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 2:47 pm I have no vowel in the final syllable

[ˈdifəkʰɫ̩ʷʔ(t)]

Likewise, at least up to predictable differences between our accents. (My syllabic lateral there is not noticeably rounded, for instance.)

It's that day of the year again, where Americans (as opposed to Poles) eat pączki. So how do you butcher the pronunciation of this word?

[ˈdɪfəɡɫ̩t]

I've never heard of pączki.

Never heard of pączki either, but my instincts say /ˈpʰɔnt͡ʃˌkɪj/

Im half polish and I'd say [ˈpʰɒntʃkʰəj].

Darren wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 2:43 am Im half polish

Huh, you are? I’d never have guessed.

Anyway, for difficult I have [ˈtɨfɨˌkʰ(ə̆)o̝tˢ], and for pączki I’d guess /pãt͡ʃki/, which I would attempt to pronounce exactly like that.

For pączki I have [ˈpʰʌ̃ntʃci(ː)] but my mother, who is entirely of Polish descent, says [ˈpʰʊ̃ntʃci(ː)] (!).

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 5:18 am Huh, you are? I’d never have guessed.

I don't speak Polish unfortunately so there's nothing to give it away

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 5:18 am Anyway, for difficult I have [ˈtɨfɨˌkʰ(ə̆)o̝tˢ], and for pączki I’d guess /pãt͡ʃki/, which I would attempt to pronounce exactly like that.

I'm surprise you devoice lenis stops, it's not something I think of as an AusEng feature.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 7:49 am For pączki I have [ˈpʰʌ̃ntʃci(ː)] but my mother, who is entirely of Polish descent, says [ˈpʰʊ̃ntʃci(ː)] (!).

What's with the lack of aspiration on the palatal stop? Does that mean it's /g/?

Darren wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 2:42 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 7:49 am For pączki I have [ˈpʰʌ̃ntʃci(ː)] but my mother, who is entirely of Polish descent, says [ˈpʰʊ̃ntʃci(ː)] (!).

What's with the lack of aspiration on the palatal stop? Does that mean it's /g/?

The lack of aspiration is because it is not at the start of a stressed or initial syllable. Note that fortis-lenis pairs generally neutralize in the dialect here in non-initial members of obstruent clusters except where they begin a stressed syllable (as they lack a preceding vowel to undergo vowel length allophony and are not distinguished by aspiration, and obstruent clusters normally agree in voicing, with them commonly undergoing devoicing even when all the members are originally lenis).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 2:52 pmThe lack of aspiration is because it is not at the start of a stressed or initial syllable. Note that fortis-lenis pairs generally neutralize in the dialect here in non-initial members of obstruent clusters except where they begin a stressed syllable (as they lack a preceding vowel to undergo vowel length allophony and are not distinguished by aspiration, and obstruent clusters normally agree in voicing, with them commonly undergoing devoicing even when all the members are originally lenis).

That is quite something

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:02 pmIt's that day of the year again, where Americans (as opposed to Poles) eat pączki. So how do you butcher the pronunciation of this word?

I have never heard of it, but given the spelling I'd say it's something like /pɔɲt͡ɕkɨ/.


JAL

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 2:40 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 2:52 pmThe lack of aspiration is because it is not at the start of a stressed or initial syllable. Note that fortis-lenis pairs generally neutralize in the dialect here in non-initial members of obstruent clusters except where they begin a stressed syllable (as they lack a preceding vowel to undergo vowel length allophony and are not distinguished by aspiration, and obstruent clusters normally agree in voicing, with them commonly undergoing devoicing even when all the members are originally lenis).

That is quite something

Nah, it is quite normal for English varieties to only aspirate fortis obstruents at the start of stressed and initial syllables. About the devoicing, though, in the dialect I speak natively lenis plosives tend to devoice in clusters, and obstruent clusters almost always agree in realized voicing with them favoring voicelessness (however, non-final clusters consisting solely of lenis fricatives tend to not devoice).

jal wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 7:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 04, 2025 2:02 pmIt's that day of the year again, where Americans (as opposed to Poles) eat pączki. So how do you butcher the pronunciation of this word?

I have never heard of it, but given the spelling I'd say it's something like /pɔɲt͡ɕkɨ/.

If I were to try to more closely emulate the original Polish within the limits of the phonology of my native English I would say [ˈpʰɒ̃ntʃci(ː)], and the word paunch /pɔntʃ/ [pʰɒ̃ʔtʃ] does natively exist for me, but for some reason it feels funny trying to pronounce pączki that way for reasons I am not sure (note that it feels normal to pronounce [n] in pączki even though normally homorganic nasals are elided IMD before coda fortis obstruents).

Edit: I got the spelling of paunch wrong for some reason.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 10:40 am

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 2:40 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 05, 2025 2:52 pmThe lack of aspiration is because it is not at the start of a stressed or initial syllable. Note that fortis-lenis pairs generally neutralize in the dialect here in non-initial members of obstruent clusters except where they begin a stressed syllable (as they lack a preceding vowel to undergo vowel length allophony and are not distinguished by aspiration, and obstruent clusters normally agree in voicing, with them commonly undergoing devoicing even when all the members are originally lenis).

That is quite something

Nah, it is quite normal for English varieties to only aspirate fortis obstruents at the start of stressed and initial syllables. About the devoicing, though, in the dialect I speak natively lenis plosives tend to devoice in clusters, and obstruent clusters almost always agree in realized voicing with them favoring voicelessness (however, non-final clusters consisting solely of lenis fricatives tend to not devoice).

For me I think this neutralisation only applies after fricatives, not stops or affricates. The actual word under discussion is not in my vocabulary, but I find there's a much more convincing difference between a hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ than say /'klɪftən/ and /'klɪfdən/.

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 11:34 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 10:40 am

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 2:40 am

That is quite something

Nah, it is quite normal for English varieties to only aspirate fortis obstruents at the start of stressed and initial syllables. About the devoicing, though, in the dialect I speak natively lenis plosives tend to devoice in clusters, and obstruent clusters almost always agree in realized voicing with them favoring voicelessness (however, non-final clusters consisting solely of lenis fricatives tend to not devoice).

For me I think this neutralisation only applies after fricatives, not stops or affricates. The actual word under discussion is not in my vocabulary, but I find there's a much more convincing difference between a hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ than say /'klɪftən/ and /'klɪfdən/.

In your hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ do you aspirate your /k/ or voice your /g/ or both?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:15 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 11:34 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 10:40 am

Nah, it is quite normal for English varieties to only aspirate fortis obstruents at the start of stressed and initial syllables. About the devoicing, though, in the dialect I speak natively lenis plosives tend to devoice in clusters, and obstruent clusters almost always agree in realized voicing with them favoring voicelessness (however, non-final clusters consisting solely of lenis fricatives tend to not devoice).

For me I think this neutralisation only applies after fricatives, not stops or affricates. The actual word under discussion is not in my vocabulary, but I find there's a much more convincing difference between a hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ than say /'klɪftən/ and /'klɪfdən/.

In your hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ do you aspirate your /k/ or voice your /g/ or both?

As I say these are hypothetical, but I think I aspirate the /k/; not sure about the voicing of the /g/.

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 3:01 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 12:15 pm

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 11:34 am For me I think this neutralisation only applies after fricatives, not stops or affricates. The actual word under discussion is not in my vocabulary, but I find there's a much more convincing difference between a hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ than say /'klɪftən/ and /'klɪfdən/.

In your hypothetical /ˈpɒnt͡ʃki/ and /ˈpɒnt͡ʃgi/ do you aspirate your /k/ or voice your /g/ or both?

As I say these are hypothetical, but I think I aspirate the /k/; not sure about the voicing of the /g/.

Interesting -- that is different from what I recall reading about SSBE, where supposedly fortis plosives are not aspirated in unstressed non-initial syllable onsets.

How do you pronounce "antifa"? I realized I have no idea of its English realization, as "fa" is short for "fascist", but the "fa" of "fascist" can't typically end a word (in Dutch we have no such problem, as we have /fa/, for the first syllable of fascist, and thus also as last syllable of "antifa").


JAL