Zompist Bboard Again

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:56 am No, the Conservative party. The Beast of Bolsover famously actually declared that 50% of the Tory MPs were honest, after being reprimanded for saying that 50% of them were dishonest. Mind you, this was before the 2019 election, so the quality has probably gone down since then.

The Tories should have thanked him! 50% honest is a pretty good performance in politics.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:08 am

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:56 am No, the Conservative party. The Beast of Bolsover famously actually declared that 50% of the Tory MPs were honest, after being reprimanded for saying that 50% of them were dishonest. Mind you, this was before the 2019 election, so the quality has probably gone down since then.

The Tories should have thanked him! 50% honest is a pretty good performance in politics.

OK, to get really pedantic, Wikiquote says he didn't actually say that https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dennis_Skinner

malloc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:36 pm Out of curiosity, what would you say distinguishes Labour and the Liberal Democrats in terms of policies and position on the political landscape? I had the impression that Labour began as socialists or social democrats but ultimately drifted into centrism. Yet the Liberal Democrats are also centrist from what I understand. So what distinguishes them in practice?

If only Salmoneus were still here; he'd enlighten you much better than I could. Until then, RationalWiki's page about the election is a good place to start.

alice wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:58 pm Until then, RationalWiki's page about the election is a good place to start.

That is pretty amusing for a wiki!

Historically, the LibDems derive from the 19th century Liberals, who were a viable grown-up party that alternated with the Conservatives. They plummeted in popularity when Labour started winning elections, but refused to exit the stage.

In the US, periodically some poor souls convince themselves that, in a first-past-the-post system, there is a need for a new centrist party. This never goes anywhere. But in the UK it does: they join the LibDems. In fact that's where the Dem part comes from— the Social Democratic Party, a splinter from Labour. (Oh, and the RationalWiki article mentions this, but it's a little obscure: the LibDems allied with the Conservatives in 2010, a bold move which took the party from 57 seats to 8.)

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:11 pm Spoiling your ballot is an option.

Just voting for my first preference is better.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:34 pm(Oh, and the RationalWiki article mentions this, but it's a little obscure: the LibDems allied with the Conservatives in 2010, a bold move which took the party from 57 seats to 8.)

And this happened, interestingly enough, after a period of a few years when they had managed it to successfully convince a lot of people that they were more to the left than the Blair/Brown era Labour Party.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 5:44 pm Having seem the depressed political posts posted lately, I suppose I should post my woes. I have a thee-way choice:

1) Vote for the party who changed my daughters citizenship from permanent to conditional and made my wife's getting citizenship too hard;

2) Vote for the 50% honest party that wants to restrict our human rights and civil liberties;

3) Vote for the party that is highly unlikely to win the seat.

Be more explicit about whcih parties you are referring to.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 5:35 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:34 pm(Oh, and the RationalWiki article mentions this, but it's a little obscure: the LibDems allied with the Conservatives in 2010, a bold move which took the party from 57 seats to 8.)

And this happened, interestingly enough, after a period of a few years when they had managed it to successfully convince a lot of people that they were more to the left than the Blair/Brown era Labour Party.

This is literally the reason I and my then girlfriend (eventually wife, now ex) voted Lib-Dem back in 2010 in Sheffield (not Clegg's constituency, I think our seat ended up going to Labour). Most of the way through my time at university, and then in the run up to that election just before I graduated, a lot of us were largely of the feeling that the Lib-Dems were a sort of "more socially progressive" version of Labour, against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in favour of electoral reform, but otherwise the same. We didn't really look much at all into their economic policies, which from what I can remember turned out to be to the right of Labour, but to the left of the Conservatives, standing for things like reduced government intervention in things like the free market, with the exception of favouring things like the welfare state and various social justice efforts. I think, if we'd even vaguely looked at at the time, would have made their eventual support of the Conservative Party in the formation of a coalition government slightly less surprising

It's the only time I've ever voted Lib-Dem, and even though our seat ended up going to Labour, it's still somewhat of a "regret", and I can definitely see why they lost so many votes in the next GE

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:34 pm(Oh, and the RationalWiki article mentions this, but it's a little obscure: the LibDems allied with the Conservatives in 2010, a bold move which took the party from 57 seats to 8.)

Specifically, of course, because the LibDems promised not to increate tuition fees, then once in government voted in favour of it. They're only now beginning to recover.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 5:48 am

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 5:44 pm Having seem the depressed political posts posted lately, I suppose I should post my woes. I have a thee-way choice:

1) Vote for the party who changed my daughters citizenship from permanent to conditional and made my wife's getting citizenship too hard;

2) Vote for the 50% honest party that wants to restrict our human rights and civil liberties;

3) Vote for the party that is highly unlikely to win the seat.

Be more explicit about whcih parties you are referring to.

Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat.

Well, exit polls are up on the BBC website:

Labour: 410 (+209)
Conservative: 131 (-241)
Liberal Democrats: 61 (+53)
Reform UK: 13 (+13)
Scottish National Party: 10 (-38)
Plaid Cymru: 4 (+1)
Green: 2 (+1)
Others: 19

(I think that's compared to the 2019 election result, though, not the actual state of the HoC when the election was called. Like Labour had already gained 4 MPs since 2019, and the Conservatives had lost )

Seems like, if those are accurate, it's about what people were expecting: massive Labour gain, massive Conservative loss (apparently their lowest result in almost two centuries), relatively big LD gain and SNP loss, and oh look here comes Reform as an actual parliamentary party

So I'm watching the BBC coverage with my flatmate, and I get a bit of a hiccup while they're interviewing Jacob Rees-Mogg, and my flatmate says, "You've got a hiccup? Should I scare you so that you get rid of it?" And I say, "If the sight of Jacob Rees-Mogg isn't enough to scare me out of this hiccup..."

Anyway, the main story in terms of actual votes seems to be Conservative voters moving to Reform.

I'm generally no fan of first-past-the-post at all, but that said, British constituency declarations are the best election night drama I can think of.

BBC wrote:Andrea Leadsom, who was a minister in the Department of Health and Social Care under Rishi Sunak but stood down at this election, says the strong showing of Reform UK so far suggests "perhaps it's that we've not been conservative enough".

Uh sure, lady, that's the problem.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 6:54 pm

BBC wrote:Andrea Leadsom, who was a minister in the Department of Health and Social Care under Rishi Sunak but stood down at this election, says the strong showing of Reform UK so far suggests "perhaps it's that we've not been conservative enough".

Uh sure, lady, that's the problem.

Unfortunately, given the way the Conservatives are hemmorhaging votes to Reform - in several of the constituencies that were declared for Labour so far, Reform was far ahead of the Conservatives in second place - she might have a point.

How did Lyne get on top of Ashton?

So Farage becomes an MP.

Why do returning officers keep referring to "the Conservative Party candidate" while leaving out the word "candidate" when talking about other parties' candidates?

For our British friends: Conservative Wipeout Bingo

https://portillogeddon.com/