Zompist Bboard Again

Given that "LASER" was originally an acronym, does anyone ever write it in all caps?

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 5:51 am Given that "LASER" was originally an acronym, does anyone ever write it in all caps?

No.

There is, however, an interesting discussion to be had about LIDAR vs LiDAR vs lidar. I can dig up the reference once I’m at my computer, but for my Masters thesis I eventually decided on ‘lidar’.

Found said reference: https://lidarmag.com/wp-content/uploads ... ol4No6.pdf

Conversely, you will see Unix and Forth sometimes spelled in all-caps, especially in old sources, even though they are not acronyms.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 5:51 am Given that "LASER" was originally an acronym, does anyone ever write it in all caps?

I try to sometimes, but i know it's a losing battle. I would have preferred the more honest acronym "LABSEOR"

Thank you for your feedback, everyone!

jcb wrote:I messed that up. I meant to say that COT (/A/) is tense, and CAUGHT (/O/) is lax. (The spelling of these two words/sounds constantly confuses and tricks me, because COT is spelt with an "O", but sounds like /A/, and CAUGHT is spelt with an "A", but sounds like /O/. And, again, I have no intuition for which is which, because they're completely merged into /A/ for me.)

I just realized that part of my confusion is caused by Japanese, which uses /o/ when borrowing words like "pop" or "John". I assume this is because they're spelt with an O ? or is there some deeper reason?
- https://jisho.org/word/ポップ
- https://jisho.org/word/ジョントラ

To me THOUGHT (what I write as /ɔ/ for GA or as /ɒ/ synchronically within my own dialect) is tense, as it is a non-weak vowel that can be word-final in non-injections such as draw (GA /drɔ/, my dialect /drɒ/), and it is possible to form words in NAE like the gerund drawing (GA /ˈdrɔɨŋ/, my dialect /ˈdrɒəŋ/), which I realize as [ˈtʃɹ̠ʁɒːɘ̃ŋ], where it exists in hiatus. Yes, this means for me that the only lax back vowels are STRUT /ʌ/ and FOOT /ʊ/.

jcb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 29, 2025 9:55 am

jcb wrote:I messed that up. I meant to say that COT (/A/) is tense, and CAUGHT (/O/) is lax. (The spelling of these two words/sounds constantly confuses and tricks me, because COT is spelt with an "O", but sounds like /A/, and CAUGHT is spelt with an "A", but sounds like /O/. And, again, I have no intuition for which is which, because they're completely merged into /A/ for me.)

I just realized that part of my confusion is caused by Japanese, which uses /o/ when borrowing words like "pop" or "John". I assume this is because they're spelt with an O ? or is there some deeper reason?
- https://jisho.org/word/ポップ
- https://jisho.org/word/ジョントラ

The deeper reason would seem to be that a decent set of British¹ dialects have [ɔ] or thereabouts, which would presumably be borrowed into Japanese with its /o/.

¹ I think most current ones, although not traditional RP

Lērisama wrote: ↑Tue Jul 29, 2025 3:17 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 29, 2025 9:55 am

jcb wrote:I messed that up. I meant to say that COT (/A/) is tense, and CAUGHT (/O/) is lax. (The spelling of these two words/sounds constantly confuses and tricks me, because COT is spelt with an "O", but sounds like /A/, and CAUGHT is spelt with an "A", but sounds like /O/. And, again, I have no intuition for which is which, because they're completely merged into /A/ for me.)

I just realized that part of my confusion is caused by Japanese, which uses /o/ when borrowing words like "pop" or "John". I assume this is because they're spelt with an O ? or is there some deeper reason?
- https://jisho.org/word/ポップ
- https://jisho.org/word/ジョントラ

The deeper reason would seem to be that a decent set of British¹ dialects have [ɔ] or thereabouts, which would presumably be borrowed into Japanese with its /o/.

¹ I think most current ones, although not traditional RP

So, do those British dialects even have an /A/ phoneme? What low/back vowel phonemes do they have?

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:21 am ¹ I think most current ones, although not traditional RP

So, do those British dialects even have an /A/ phoneme? What low/back vowel phonemes do they have?
[/quote]

My low vowels are STRUT, which is /ʌ/ for convenience but really something like [ɑ̽]; its rhotic¹ version PALM/BATH/START, /ɑː/;TRAP, /æ/; and a marginalBAD, /æː/.

¹ Read: long

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:27 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:21 am So, do those British dialects even have an /A/ phoneme? What low/back vowel phonemes do they have?

My low vowels are STRUT, which is /ʌ/ for convenience but really something like [ɑ̽]; its rhotic¹ version PALM/BATH/START, /ɑː/;TRAP, /æ/; and a marginalBAD, /æː/.

¹ Read: long

So, if LOT is /O/, what is THOUGHT? Also /O/? or higher?

THOUGHT/NORTH/FORCE is for me around [o̞ː], although I'd believe eanywhere between [ɔː] and [o/ː]

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:41 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:27 am

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:21 am So, do those British dialects even have an /A/ phoneme? What low/back vowel phonemes do they have?

My low vowels are STRUT, which is /ʌ/ for convenience but really something like [ɑ̽]; its rhotic¹ version PALM/BATH/START, /ɑː/;TRAP, /æ/; and a marginalBAD, /æː/.

¹ Read: long

So, if LOT is /O/, what is THOUGHT? Also /O/? or higher?

I’m not British, but for me LOT is [ɔ] and THOUGHT is [oː].

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:20 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:41 am

Lērisama wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:27 am
My low vowels are STRUT, which is /ʌ/ for convenience but really something like [ɑ̽]; its rhotic¹ version PALM/BATH/START, /ɑː/;TRAP, /æ/; and a marginalBAD, /æː/.

¹ Read: long

So, if LOT is /O/, what is THOUGHT? Also /O/? or higher?

I’m not British, but for me LOT is [ɔ] and THOUGHT is [oː].

So, what is your GOAT vowel then?

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:44 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:20 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:41 am
So, if LOT is /O/, what is THOUGHT? Also /O/? or higher?

I’m not British, but for me LOT is [ɔ] and THOUGHT is [oː].

So, what is your GOAT vowel then?

Something like [ɔ̟͡ʉ̟ ~ ɔ̟͡ɜ]. (See here.)

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:44 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:20 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:41 am
So, if LOT is /O/, what is THOUGHT? Also /O/? or higher?

I’m not British, but for me LOT is [ɔ] and THOUGHT is [oː].

So, what is your GOAT vowel then?

I speak AusEng which is fairly close to BrEng in terms of vowels:

/i/ = KIT
/e/ = DRESS
/æ/ = TRAP
/a/ = STRUT
/ɒ/ = LOT/CLOTH
/ʊ/ = FOOT

/ɪː/ = NEAR
/eː/ = SQUARE
/æː/ = BAD
/aː/ = PALM/FATHER/START
/ɵː/ = NURSE
/ʊ̞ː/ = NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE/CURE

/əi/ = FLEECE
/əy/ = GOOSE
/ɐɪ/ = FACE
/ɒy/ = GOAT
/ɒe/ = PRICE
/ɛo/ = MOUTH

American dialects have pretty much all unrounded LOT, shortened long vowels and smoothed diphthongs, but they retain rhotics. British/Commonwealth dialects tend to raise KIT, DRESS and TRAP (esp. commonwealth), raise LOT, raise NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE and generally merge it with CURE, and spread diphthongs.

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:44 am British/Commonwealth dialects tend to raise KIT, DRESS and TRAP (esp. commonwealth), raise LOT, raise NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE and generally merge it with CURE, and spread diphthongs.

I thought a classic feature of modern British dialects is that they lower TRAP, while NAE dialects often raise or diphthongize TRAP.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 3:53 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:44 am British/Commonwealth dialects tend to raise KIT, DRESS and TRAP (esp. commonwealth), raise LOT, raise NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE and generally merge it with CURE, and spread diphthongs.

I thought a classic feature of modern British dialects is that they lower TRAP, while NAE dialects often raise or diphthongize TRAP.

I raise none of KIT, DRESS & TRAP; I think Darren may have meant “lowered”, contrasting eith with the raising of LOT

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:21 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 3:53 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Thu Jul 31, 2025 4:44 am British/Commonwealth dialects tend to raise KIT, DRESS and TRAP (esp. commonwealth), raise LOT, raise NORTH/THOUGHT/FORCE and generally merge it with CURE, and spread diphthongs.

I thought a classic feature of modern British dialects is that they lower TRAP, while NAE dialects often raise or diphthongize TRAP.

I raise none of KIT, DRESS & TRAP; I think Darren may have meant “lowered”, contrasting eith with the raising of LOT

The matter with that, though, is that AusE, NZE, and apparently traditional RP raise DRESS relative to most other modern English varieties, whether British or American.