The "How Do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Glass Half Baked]

TIL, people in this thread pronounce Euripides "yoo-rip-PIE-deez," and Eumenides "yoo-men-EYE-deez." At least, that's what I am forced to assume by everyone pronouncing octopodes on the third syllable.

[Travis B.]

TIL, people in this thread pronounce Euripides "yoo-rip-PIE-deez," and Eumenides "yoo-men-EYE-deez." At least, that's what I am forced to assume by everyone pronouncing octopodes on the third syllable.

It's just that English-speakers don't have a productive model of how stress works in Greek words, so when left to their own devices they come up with English-based stress patterns which do not necessarily fit how they are prescriptively supposed to be in Greek words. As for Euripides and Eumenides, the stress is lexicalized for those particular names.

[zompist]

TIL, people in this thread pronounce Euripides "yoo-rip-PIE-deez," and Eumenides "yoo-men-EYE-deez." At least, that's what I am forced to assume by everyone pronouncing octopodes on the third syllable.

It's just that English-speakers don't have a productive model of how stress works in Greek words, so when left to their own devices they come up with English-based stress patterns which do not necessarily fit how they are prescriptively supposed to be in Greek words. As for Euripides and Eumenides, the stress is lexicalized for those particular names.

So far as I know, English pronunciation of Greek names follows Latin conventions, not Greek. In Ancient Greek, both Euripides and Eumenides were stressed on the penult (Εὐριπίδης, Εὐμενῐ́δες).

[Lērisama]

TIL, people in this thread pronounce Euripides "yoo-rip-PIE-deez," and Eumenides "yoo-men-EYE-deez." At least, that's what I am forced to assume by everyone pronouncing octopodes on the third syllable.

Nope, I say /jʉˈrip.i.dijz/ and /jʉˈmɛn.i.dijz/. Zompist is right about applying Latin stress rules – for some reason -podes looks like it has a long¹ penult and -pides and -nides looks like they have short penults. You could probably run an experiment on this if you wanted / had the time.

¹ As in, a historically long because open stressed syllables lengthened vowels, now a diphthong

[jal]

As Travis said, ⟨put⟩ anď ⟨foot⟩ share the same vowel, but I will pedantically note that ⟨bullet⟩ has an actually back [ʊ], as opposed to a [ɵ] or fronter that is more usual for the FOOT vowel, because /l/s tend to back preceding vowels¹. In German terms, I say ⟨bullet⟩ rather than ⟨büllet⟩, and I'm mostly mentioning it because it is an utter pain in learning German, probably moreso than going the other way.

Lexical sets are about pnonemes, not phones, so be pedantically all you want, but bullet, put and foot all have FOOT . As for German, its <ü> is quite front (/y/), much further than most varieties of English have any vowel.

Wait, are you telling me that there are still kids today who know what the word "mullet" means? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

You'd be surprised how many ancient concepts pop up on TikTok and Instagram videos (as well as ancient music, i.e. 80s/90s). My kids did not know what a mullet's called in their native Dutch, but the English word no problem (except for the botched pronunciation) .


JAL

[bradrn]

As Travis said, ⟨put⟩ anď ⟨foot⟩ share the same vowel, but I will pedantically note that ⟨bullet⟩ has an actually back [ʊ], as opposed to a [ɵ] or fronter that is more usual for the FOOT vowel, because /l/s tend to back preceding vowels¹. In German terms, I say ⟨bullet⟩ rather than ⟨büllet⟩, and I'm mostly mentioning it because it is an utter pain in learning German, probably moreso than going the other way.

Lexical sets are about pnonemes, not phones, so be pedantically all you want, but bullet, put and foot all have FOOT . As for German, its <ü> is quite front (/y/), much further than most varieties of English have any vowel.

I don’t know about German, but Parisian French [y] is quite close to my Australian/SA English [ʉ] (which on the vowel chart is distinctly fronted).

[jal]

I don’t know about German, but Parisian French [y] is quite close to my Australian/SA English [ʉ] (which on the vowel chart is distinctly fronted).

Well, that's why I said "most varieties", as I'm aware there are varieties that have a vowel that's quite front.


JAL

[Raphael]

Unrelated: Do I get this right that there are a few English words where the letter "s" is more pronounced like how the letter "z" would usually be pronounced in English? Like, for instance, the word "loser"? Or have I been pronouncing "loser" wrong all the time?

[Lērisama]

Unrelated: Do I get this right that there are a few English words where the letter "s" is more pronounced like how the letter "z" would usually be pronounced in English? Like, for instance, the word "loser"? Or have I been pronouncing "loser" wrong all the time?

Yes, most single ⟨s⟩ between vowels is /z/, excepting recent loanwords. The plural -⟨es⟩ is also /ɪz/. Loser is /lʉwzə/ for me.

[Raphael]

Unrelated: Do I get this right that there are a few English words where the letter "s" is more pronounced like how the letter "z" would usually be pronounced in English? Like, for instance, the word "loser"? Or have I been pronouncing "loser" wrong all the time?

Yes, most single ⟨s⟩ between vowels is /z/, excepting recent loanwords. The plural -⟨es⟩ is also /ɪz/. Loser is /lʉwzə/ for me.

Thank you!

[bradrn]

Unrelated: Do I get this right that there are a few English words where the letter "s" is more pronounced like how the letter "z" would usually be pronounced in English? Like, for instance, the word "loser"? Or have I been pronouncing "loser" wrong all the time?

Not just ‘a few’ — this is the general rule for intervocalic single ⟨s⟩. I believe it dates back to Old English, which had no voicing contrast in fricatives. Presumably this has been reinforced by a similar rule in French (e.g. rose /ʀoz/, hasard /azaʀ/).

[Raphael]

Unrelated: Do I get this right that there are a few English words where the letter "s" is more pronounced like how the letter "z" would usually be pronounced in English? Like, for instance, the word "loser"? Or have I been pronouncing "loser" wrong all the time?

Not just ‘a few’ — this is the general rule for intervocalic single ⟨s⟩. I believe it dates back to Old English, which had no voicing contrast in fricatives. Presumably this has been reinforced by a similar rule in French (e.g. rose /ʀoz/, hasard /azaʀ/).

Thank you, too!

[Travis B.]

As Travis said, ⟨put⟩ anď ⟨foot⟩ share the same vowel, but I will pedantically note that ⟨bullet⟩ has an actually back [ʊ], as opposed to a [ɵ] or fronter that is more usual for the FOOT vowel, because /l/s tend to back preceding vowels¹. In German terms, I say ⟨bullet⟩ rather than ⟨büllet⟩, and I'm mostly mentioning it because it is an utter pain in learning German, probably moreso than going the other way.

Lexical sets are about pnonemes, not phones, so be pedantically all you want, but bullet, put and foot all have FOOT . As for German, its <ü> is quite front (/y/), much further than most varieties of English have any vowel.

I don’t know about German, but Parisian French [y] is quite close to my Australian/SA English [ʉ] (which on the vowel chart is distinctly fronted).

From a quick check on YouTube, Parisian French [y] sounds awfully similar to my native English [y(ː)]; i.e. Parisian French tu has roughly the same vowel as my native too. Conversely, StG [yː] is considerably fronter and more exolabial than my native [y(ː)].

[zyxw59]

Mullet takes STRUT while bullet takes FOOT -- the only people who can legitimately pronounce the two with the same vowels are the people who don't have the split between STRUT and FOOT in the first place.

I distinguish STRUT and FOOT, but not before /l/. It would have never occurred to me that people would pronounce 'mullet' and 'bullet' differently.

[jal]

I distinguish STRUT and FOOT, but not before /l/. It would have never occurred to me that people would pronounce 'mullet' and 'bullet' differently.

Where are you from, and what value does the STRUT/FOOT vowel have before /l/?


JAL

[zyxw59]

I'm from California (San Francisco area). I'd transcribe that as /əl/ (/ə/ is my normal STRUT vowel, as I don't distinguish STRUT/COMMA). The exact quality of that /ə/ might be a bit further back (closer to [ɤ] perhaps) due to the influence of the /l/