Zompist Bboard Again

Okay! I'm guessing something like this... Though I'm still not sure of what exactly that bat is doing to that banana!

market go (nɵ=declarative) / banana edible take come (‘p’ = having come, having come and taken) place ('d' = past tense?) try (‘bi’ even though) / bat eat ('pe' = ??) be (‘de’=negative) =3 / see =1/2 (inference)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:53 am Okay! I'm guessing something like this... Though I'm still not sure of what exactly that bat is doing to that banana!

market go (nɵ=declarative) / banana edible take come (‘p’ = having come, having come and taken) place ('d' = past tense?) try (‘bi’ even though) / bat eat ('pe' = ??) be (‘de’=negative) =3 / see =1/2 (inference)

Getting closer! You are correct in defining ‘-p’ as the same-subject sequential converb, ‘-bi’ as the concessive, and ‘-de’ as the privative. However, the rest are still incorrect: the suffix ‘-nɵ’ has no relation to the declarative particle ‘nɵ’ (in fact I didn’t even notice the similarity until now), and ‘-d’ is not even close to a past tense. As for ‘-pe’, this is a situation where the translated sentences should be really useful.

(And the bat is indeed eating the banana; that was the one bit everyone’s gotten right so far. I’m not quite sure if bats actually eat bananas, but I can’t think of anything else that could eat them in the wild.)

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 am I think this game probably works better with a posteriori languages, since you can figure out what the cognates are (sometimes).

It also works with conlangs with published grammars, as is sort of the case with Hlʉ̂.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:24 am I’m not quite sure if bats actually eat bananas, but I can’t think of anything else that could eat them in the wild.

People?

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:24 am

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 am I think this game probably works better with a posteriori languages, since you can figure out what the cognates are (sometimes).

It also works with conlangs with published grammars, as is sort of the case with Hlʉ̂.

It could also work better if other example sentences were given with full or partial glosses for people to use as a means of decoding the target sentence. But it depends how difficult or easy one wishes to make it.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:02 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:24 am I’m not quite sure if bats actually eat bananas, but I can’t think of anything else that could eat them in the wild.

People?

Haha, very funny. In fact, most wild banana species are inedible by humans when raw, e.g. wild Musa balbisiana:

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:25 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:02 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:24 am I’m not quite sure if bats actually eat bananas, but I can’t think of anything else that could eat them in the wild.

People?

Haha, very funny. In fact, most wild banana species are inedible by humans when raw, e.g. wild Musa balbisiana

This is, as far as I can recall, the first time my mind has been turned to the thought that there are different species of banana.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:39 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:25 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:02 am

People?

Haha, very funny. In fact, most wild banana species are inedible by humans when raw, e.g. wild Musa balbisiana

This is, as far as I can recall, the first time my mind has been turned to the thought that there are different species of banana.

Yep! There are about 70 species in Musa, and a further ~10 elsewhere in the Musaceae. Out of all these species, only three or four are edible and widely cultivated: most prominently Musa acuminata, its hybrids especially Musa × paradisiaca, the Feʻi-type bananas from Musa section Callimusa, and Ensete ventricosum (which strictly speaking isn’t a banana at all). Of these, only the Cavendish banana — a very specific cultivar of Musa acuminata — is at all easy to find outside Oceania and Ethiopia. Though generally considered much less tasty than other bananas, this cultivar is widely grown due to its resistance to Panama disease. On the other hand, it is not resistant to the black sigatoka, and since Cavendish bananas are sterile and hence must be cloned, it could be difficult to introduce resistance. Personally, I’m hopeful that a recently-discovered method for grafting monocots will be of use here, and might even allow re-introduction of the Gros Michel cultivar, reputed to be much tastier than the Cavendish.

Oh, and did you know that the Latin name Musa is a Wanderwort originally from Trans–New Guinea?

(Please, please don’t ask me how I learnt all this stuff…)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:36 am (Please, please don’t ask me how I learnt all this stuff…)

So, how did you learn all this stuff?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:06 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:36 am (Please, please don’t ask me how I learnt all this stuff…)

So, how did you learn all this stuff?

Glad you asked! Let me just say that, by the time the good folks at the Big Banana have talked at you for an hour, you too will know all about bananas. That, and the fact that I’ve become interested in botany recently.

---

Anyway, back on topic… does anyone else have any other attempts at translating my sentence?

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:24 am the suffix ‘-nɵ’ has no relation to the declarative particle ‘nɵ’ (in fact I didn’t even notice the similarity until now)

Ah-ha!


I'm still a bit stuck, but here are my best guesses:

I'm tempted to say -nɵ marks purpose, and that -d is another kind of same-subject particle.
-pe seems to switch the subject ( maybe from 1st p plural to 3rd person: "The bat having eaten")

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:17 am I'm tempted to say -nɵ marks purpose …

Close enough. The purposive is actually a different suffix, and -nɵ has many non-purposive uses, but there is a substantial overlap.

… and that -d is another kind of same-subject particle.
-pe seems to switch the subject ( maybe from 1st p plural to 3rd person: "The bat having eaten")

Correct! This is indeed a switch-reference system, where -d is a same-subject suffix and -pe is a third person different-subject suffix. Now try figuring out the time reference, and then you should have all the information necessary to translate the sentence.

We went to the market trying to find a banana the bat hadn't eaten?

(Okay; not a terrible good guess. I'm throwing up the sponge!)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:22 am We went to the market trying to find a banana the bat hadn't eaten?

Pretty close, actually — I’m willing to accept this as a satisfactory non-literal translation, especially given the ambiguity in a typical Hlʉ̂ sentence. Here’s what I have:

Before we went to the market, we tried to gather up our bananas, but discovered that the bats had eaten them and they were gone.

Explanation:

mát sínɵ — before going to the market [-nɵ is the posterior or future converb, also used for goals]
{mud ta {bohb}₂ {tǎm}₃ did}₁ pobi — though [we] tried, {placing [our] bananas down {having taken}₂ [them and] {having come}₃}₁ [that last part is a conventionalised expression for ‘gather up’]
kleʔ hápe — bats having eaten [them]
nide e — them not being [there]
sém a dá — we saw.

So I suppose a more literal translation would go something like:

Before going to the market, though having tried come get our bananas, we saw them being absent, bats having eaten them.

Why don’t you go next? As I recall, we have a fair amount of info on Simbri, and only slightly less on Bug and Yttrian.

Okay then. Bug would be cruel, but let's try some Simbri:

Nas masne salammaq setlal: qā tleiqātpan tlewāttlas sawāttlas.


Assorted prefixes and bits of vocabulary:

masne 'many'
tlewāttlas 'his grandfather'
larmaq 'remember'
sa- (prefix) 'me, my'
qa- (prefix) privative,negative
tlal: 'room'
qa-: privative
nas: 'true'
qā: 'know'
tletpi: 'his head'
i- (particle) locative

Other hints:
Tense and evidentiality are marked by removing the last vowel of a verb, and adding a suffix:
cawen 'he sows something' > cawnet 'he was sawing something' (I saw him), cawnis 'he will sow'.

Other distinctions are made by changing the second-to-last vowel:

wecha 'to write' → wancha 'to be written', wacha, 'to have written' or 'to be written'
awen, 'to sow' → āwen, 'to have sown', 'to be sown', ewen, 'to be sowing'

(I've no idea if this is enough of a puzzle, or to hard ot figure out! We'll see how it turns out.)

Sure, let's try this.

No obvious meaning is apparent on first glance. The only straightforward elements are the last two: "his grandfather" and "my grandfather". Every other word is problematic.

The second-easiest element is the first two words, which may or may not form a phrase. If nas masne is a phrase, it probably means "very many". Otherwise, nas is probably adsentential and means "truly".

salammaq is probably a verb complex. On the example of wecha -> wancha, I assume that the stem lammaq is a nasal-infixed passive of larmaq. Thus, we have either "I am remembered" or perhaps "my memori(es)".

setlal is not immediately segmentable. It may be

tle-

3s-

tlal

room

with dissimilation of tlVtlV- to sVtlV-
, thus meaning "his room". Alternatively, the segmentation is sa-i-tlal > "in my room".

The word tleiqātpan is impenetrable to me. It seems clear that the first element is the third-person singular (masculine? what is the difference between c- in cawen and tle-?) prefix, but the rest could be a lot of things. Assuming maximal prefixation, we have something like:

tle-

3s-

i-

LOC-

qa-

PRIV-

(a)tpan

???

With a stem related to "head".

I agree with much of Hallow’s analysis. Other thoughts:

• I disagree with the given segmentation of theiqātpan, if only because we don’t know what a tpan is.
• The last two words are clearly an NP, my grandfather’s grandfather.
• Since it’s preceded by a word meaning ‘many’, I suspect salammaq is most likely to mean ‘my memories’ — Simbri is famously rather loose with its noun/verb distinction.
• In tletpi, the first syllable is obviously a possessive; then we have ‘head’ being tpi. Going back to tleiqātpan, and reminding ourselves about the previous point, could tpan mean ‘having a head’? (cf wecha→wancha) Meaning that Hallow’s segmentation actually is correct, meaning ‘him not having a head’.

Hallow XIII wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:55 pm The second-easiest element is the first two words, which may or may not form a phrase. If nas masne is a phrase, it probably means "very many". Otherwise, nas is probably adsentential and means "truly".

Nas is adsentential.

So we provisionally have:

Nas masne salammaq setlal: qā tleiqātpan tlewāttlas sawāttlas.

nas

truly

masne

many

sa-la⟨m⟩maq

my-⟨PASS⟩remember

setlal:

in:this:room?

qā

know

tle-i-qa-tpan

his-LOC-PRIV-have.head

tle-wāttlas

his-grandfather

sa-wāttlas.

my-grandfather

Giving as a translation:

Truly, I have many memories in this room: my grandfather’s grandfather knew he did not have a head.

Except that doesn’t actually make any sense…

I expect "not having a head" is probably some sort of idiom, possibly of meaning akin to "not having a good head on his shoulders". I would tentatively interpret it, based on the translations already given, as I really do have many memories in this room, (especially) of my grandfather's grandfather, who knew he wasn't in his right mind, or something to that effect.

Kudos to all of you.
Rounin's translation isn't right yet, but pretty close.

Hallow XIII wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:55 pm It seems clear that the first element is the third-person singular (masculine? what is the difference between c- in cawen and tle-?) prefix,

That is correct. The first prefix is a noun-class agreement marker. tle- is class I (animates); c- is a marker for noun class II (uncountable)

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:45 pm Nas masne salammaq setlal: qā tleiqātpan tlewāttlas sawāttlas.

nas

truly

masne

many

sa-la⟨m⟩maq

my-⟨PASS⟩remember

setlal:

in:this:room?

qā

know

tle-i-qa-tpan

his-LOC-PRIV-have.head

tle-wāttlas

his-grandfather

sa-wāttlas.

my-grandfather

salammaq isn't quite 'my memories', but close enough to figure out the sentence. setlal is indeed 'this room'
The morpheme breakdown of tleiqātpan isn't completely right (but you don't have enough information to give a precise breakdown) but you guys have almost, but not quite, figured out what it means anyway (hint: did you understand how voice is marked?)

nas is indeed adsentential; another hint: it's not the only adsentential word in the sample.

Random pondering notes:

nas — "truly, surely"
masne — "many"

—————————————————————————————————
sa — Indicates something to do with the speaker?
la — Possibly a passive marker, as Brarndn indicated;
maq — "remember"
—————————————————————————————————

salammaq — "remember myself" (?), "memories of me" (?)
setlal — "(in) this room"
qā — possibly simply an expression, as "you know/y'know" in English

—————————————————————————————————
tle — confirmed to be an animate class marker.
iqa — might mean "missing" (?)
tpan — "head" (?)
—————————————————————————————————

tleiquatpan — "missing his head" (?)


I have very many memories in this room, (especially) hearing of how my grandfather's grandfather lost his head (possibly literally).

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:46 am sa — Indicates something to do with the speaker?
la — Possibly a passive marker, as Brarndn indicated;
maq — "remember"

No, the nasal infix is the passive. As Ares Land already said, the root is larmaq ‘remember’.

qā — possibly simply an expression, as "you know/y'know" in English

I agree that this is probably the other adsentential word mentioned.

I have very many memories in this room, (especially) hearing of how my grandfather's grandfather lost his head (possibly literally).

I tend to agree with this translation.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:31 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:46 am sa — Indicates something to do with the speaker?
la — Possibly a passive marker, as Brarndn indicated;
maq — "remember"

No, the nasal infix is the passive. As Ares Land already said, the root is larmaq ‘remember’.

Oh, I was thinking there was some sort of assimilation going on there.