Zompist Bboard Again

this is such a boring axe to grind. if you're going to be a reactionary railing against any effort to get people to think about the effects their words have on others, at least get new material

literally complaining about "womyn", a spelling that a tiny group of people used in their own writing to make a rhetorical point—never suggesting that it be universally adopted or that it was in any way the solution to any problem—and that nobody has used in earnest in forty fucking years and you expect anyone to listen to you crying about it? sorry but i have already had a lifetime's worth of right-wingers complaining about the "p. c. police" and "sjw's" and "woke brigades" and whatever other terms you people up with to try to make yourselves look like victims when someone tells you not to tell racist jokes or call a woman a bitch. presenting it with the fig leaf of Genuine Linguistic Concern isn't fooling anyone. fucking grow up

I don't think anyone was suggesting that anyone used "womyn" as anything but a rhetorical device. And I personally don't see the use of such as a problem, as long as no one tells me that I ought to use it, which I have seen no one do.

The real problem is when people take language that was not originally offensive, come up with reasons that it in their minds is offensive, and then tell others that they ought to change their language to comply. This is what I have seen with guys, as in you guys and hey guys - in these cases I have seen people come up with reasons to see them as offensive when even they themselves did not previously see them as offensive, and then tell others that they ought to deprecate them, e.g. by replacing you guys with y'all.

The usual counterargument to guys is that examples of using it to include women are generally found in the mouths of women. From men, "this guy I know" is almost certainly not female, and "going out with the guys" is not likely to involve women.

Also, y'all is far from the only option to replace you guys - it's one people have chosen entirely because it's not in their idiolect and has a jocular and casual affect, but there's also everyone, team, gang and folks depending on the exact context.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:21 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:59 pm That’s so weird! It’s almost like German is, I dunno, a completely different language with a different system of noun gender spoken in a society distinct from ours with a different history of feminism and of feminist attempts to influence common usage or something.

My point was that what is offensive is in many cases more a matter of politics and fashion than anything straightforward or objective.

I don't understand; was someone arguing differently?

Travis B. wrote:While some cases are very cut and dry, like the whole white-people-using-the-N-word matter, other cases are not, like the case of landlady.

It's only very recently that this has become a "cut-and-dry case" on a societal level and you still find no shortage of white people willing to dispute that.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:59 am The usual counterargument to guys is that examples of using it to include women are generally found in the mouths of women. From men, "this guy I know" is almost certainly not female, and "going out with the guys" is not likely to involve women.

One thing to remember is that gender-neutral guys is specifically its vocative usage. I agree that both of your examples normally refer to men, but those are not vocative in nature.

About vocative guys being used by women to address groups consisting of women, usually to me that is mentioned in arguing for its being gender-neutral rather than not.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:59 am Also, y'all is far from the only option to replace you guys - it's one people have chosen entirely because it's not in their idiolect and has a jocular and casual affect, but there's also everyone, team, gang and folks depending on the exact context.

To me, all of those feel rather forced and somewhat foreign, as if I were deliberately changing core grammar in my dialect to make a political statement. The closest example I can think of is if one were to remove Sie from one's lect (yes, I am mentioning German again) and replace it solely with du for the sake of being egalitarian.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:09 pm Something to take into account about patriarchy-ectomies in different languages is the way that gender is treated. For instance, in the process of partriarchy-ectomization in English, we have largely abandoned -ess aside from in a few limited cases such as actress, yet German feminists have insisted on the opposite, i.e. the use of -in(nen) systematically, e.g. insisting on saying Politiker und Politikerinnen rather than just Politiker (pl.). (I am surprised they do not insist on Politikerinnen und Politiker...)

You're behind the curve. Currently, the trend is to go for Politiker*innen, with the Genderstern spoken as a pause. This usage has a verb, gendern, and is the current bugbear of the usual conservative suspects.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:56 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:09 pm Something to take into account about patriarchy-ectomies in different languages is the way that gender is treated. For instance, in the process of partriarchy-ectomization in English, we have largely abandoned -ess aside from in a few limited cases such as actress, yet German feminists have insisted on the opposite, i.e. the use of -in(nen) systematically, e.g. insisting on saying Politiker und Politikerinnen rather than just Politiker (pl.). (I am surprised they do not insist on Politikerinnen und Politiker...)

You're behind the curve. Currently, the trend is to go for Politiker*innen, with the Genderstern spoken as a pause. This usage has a verb, gendern, and is the current bugbear of the usual conservative suspects.

Is this like the German version of latinx?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:22 pm Is this like the German version of latinx?

I dunno… Latinx has a cover symbol for both options (o/a), while the German version uses the fact that one version is endingless to stick the other on at the end. An English equivalent would be **poet*esses.
BTW, how is Latinx pronounced? As written, or Latino/a?

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:29 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:22 pm Is this like the German version of latinx?

I dunno… Latinx has a cover symbol for both options (o/a), while the German version uses the fact that one version is endingless to stick the other on at the end. An English equivalent would be **poet*esses.
BTW, how is Latinx pronounced? As written, or Latino/a?

I have no clue honestly how someone pronounces Latinx - I have only seen it in writing. About the Gendersternchen I was reading on the Wiki about how at least one German feminist criticized it for putting the feminine marker second...

hwhatting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:29 pmBTW, how is Latinx pronounced? As written, or Latino/a

As if two words, i.e. "Latin X".

Currently it seems to be losing ground to Latine, which is a solution proposed by native speakers for the use of other native speakers.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:07 pm Currently it seems to be losing ground to Latine, which is a solution proposed by native speakers for the use of other native speakers.

This is, incidentally, the neutral form of that word I use in English.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:35 pm About the Gendersternchen I was reading on the Wiki about how at least one German feminist criticized it for putting the feminine marker second...

Only to be expected, for every conservative bemoaning the death of the German language, there will be a radical who thinks that this doesn't go far enough. Of course, there's no good way to put an overt marker before a zero marker, so the only solution for that would be to go for Politikerinnen und Politiker or to drop male forms entirely.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:14 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:07 pm Currently it seems to be losing ground to Latine, which is a solution proposed by native speakers for the use of other native speakers.

This is, incidentally, the neutral form of that word I use in English.

Latine always seemed much more reasonable to me than Latinx.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:40 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:14 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:07 pm Currently it seems to be losing ground to Latine, which is a solution proposed by native speakers for the use of other native speakers.

This is, incidentally, the neutral form of that word I use in English.

Latine always seemed much more reasonable to me than Latinx.

Forms like "Latin X" strike me as a bit forced, so I tend to avoid them.

To me the relationship between Spanish Latine and Latinx seems akin to the relationship between English ungendered they/them and English zie/hir...

As a White person, it removes my identity when people call Latin(o/a)s anything other than "Mexican."
/s

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:15 pm As a White person, it removes my identity when people call Latin(o/a)s anything other than "Mexican."
/s

Do you have a fully grammaticalized pronoun cognate with "Mexican", like how German man and Mann (and NAE guys and Guy Fawkes) are cognate?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:56 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:15 pm As a White person, it removes my identity when people call Latin(o/a)s anything other than "Mexican."
/s

Do you have a fully grammaticalized pronoun cognate with "Mexican", like how German man and Mann (and NAE guys and Guy Fawkes) are cognate?

My pronouns are Hail and Satan.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:55 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:56 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:15 pm As a White person, it removes my identity when people call Latin(o/a)s anything other than "Mexican."
/s

Do you have a fully grammaticalized pronoun cognate with "Mexican", like how German man and Mann (and NAE guys and Guy Fawkes) are cognate?

My pronouns are Hail and Satan.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to change your pronouns, as those may offend some Christians' delicate sensibilities. How about zie and hir?