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Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:37 pm
by Moose-tache
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:03 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 amMy instinct is for
photobomby to be prononounced as /ˌfoʊtoʊˈbɒmi/~/ˌfoʊtəˈbɒmi/ myself - pronouncing it as /foʊˈtɒbəmi/~/fəˈtɒbəmi/ does not feel natural to me at all.
Ditto. I'm having difficulty producing the latter pronunciation, in fact. I keep wanting to make it rhyme with "lobotomy".
OK, something to keep in mind, as I said it was a
joke and is probably supposed to sound a little bit funny. The idea isn't that this is the only or best way to pronounce the word, but that there is clearly a productive rule or else it wouldn't be possible at all, even as a joke.
But linguoboy, how on Earth do you pronounce lobotomy if it doesn't rhyme with my description of photobomby? To me, it's lo-BOT-omy. Do you say LO-bo-TO-my or something?
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:47 pm
by zompist
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:37 pm
But linguoboy, how on Earth do you pronounce lobotomy if it doesn't rhyme with my description of photobomby? To me, it's lo-BOT-omy. Do you say LO-bo-TO-my or something?
Your description was "pho-TOB-bomby", which suggested to me that you secondarily stress 'bomb'. Apparently you're saying [fɘ ˈta bɘm i], like [lo ˈba tɘm i]? If I heard that I don't think I'd make the connection to "bomb"
[bam] at all.
Sometimes jokes just don't land. But I think the word does show what you want it to, i.e. that someone can follow the model of "photography" rather than "phonotactics".
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:49 pm
by Moose-tache
zompist wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:47 pm
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:37 pm
But linguoboy, how on Earth do you pronounce lobotomy if it doesn't rhyme with my description of photobomby? To me, it's lo-BOT-omy. Do you say LO-bo-TO-my or something?
Your description was "pho-TOB-bomby", which suggested to me (and apparently Travis and lingbuoboy) that you pronounce the second b, and possibly that you secondarily stress 'bomb'. Apparently you're saying [fɘ ˈta bɘm i], like [lo ˈba tɘm i]? If I heard that I don't think I'd make the connection to "bomb" [bam] at all.
Sometimes jokes just don't land. But I think the word does show what you want it to, i.e. that someone can follow the model of "photography" rather than "phonotactics".
Wait, have I been the only one who says "bomb" with only one b my whole life? I thought that was nearly universal in English. No one ever corrected me when I pronounced it like "bom."
If so, then let me revize my earlier pronunciation guides: phoTOBom(b)y, with a silent b, since I apparently have some weird word-final mb lenition that I'm just now learning is idiosyncratic.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
by zompist
Although I'm pleased that you are so eager to read my words that you respond in a flash, I actually revised the post. Please read that instead.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 7:11 pm
by zompist
Also, I think the informal descriptions are directly leading to confusion; I switched to IPA and it would be helpful if you did too. "Bom(b)y" still does not tell us if you reduce the vowel, and that's why it surprised people when you said it rhymed with "lobotomy".
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 8:29 pm
by Estav
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:49 pm
says "bomb" with only one b my whole life? I thought that was nearly universal in English. No one ever corrected me when I pronounced it like "bom."
If so, then let me revize my earlier pronunciation guides: phoTOBom(b)y, with a silent b, since I apparently have some weird word-final mb lenition that I'm just now learning is idiosyncratic.
"Bomb" usually ends in [m]. That is the usual pronunciation of word-final ⟨mb⟩ in English; [mb] is not in my inventory of allowed word-final sounds at all, any more than [ŋg]. Apparently some speakers tolerate word-final [mb] in
iamb, but I would consider that to be a form not fully integrated into English phonotactics, like pronunciations of "loch" with [x] or of "chthonic" with [kθ].
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 9:26 pm
by zompist
I have helpfully gone back and highlighted that I said "bomb" is [bam] , since apparently people couldn't see that. I checked for invisible tiny b's, but no, it's just [bam] .
Admittedly I originally suggested "bomby" could have a b, which I edited out. There is no word-final b in "bomby".
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 7:21 am
by Moose-tache
I think I found the problem: I pronounce "bomb" as "bom," and so I just assumed everyone would read the word "bomb" and understand that it doesn't have a second b in it. But the moment I started doing phonetic spelling, everyone assumed that the Bs were now deliberate.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 1:04 pm
by Linguoboy
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:37 pm
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 1:03 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 10:57 amMy instinct is for
photobomby to be prononounced as /ˌfoʊtoʊˈbɒmi/~/ˌfoʊtəˈbɒmi/ myself - pronouncing it as /foʊˈtɒbəmi/~/fəˈtɒbəmi/ does not feel natural to me at all.
Ditto. I'm having difficulty producing the latter pronunciation, in fact. I keep wanting to make it rhyme with "lobotomy".
OK, something to keep in mind, as I said it was a
joke and is probably supposed to sound a little bit funny. The idea isn't that this is the only or best way to pronounce the word, but that there is clearly a productive rule or else it wouldn't be possible at all, even as a joke.
I get that. I'm simply reporting that I'm find it difficult to produce your target pronunciation under any conditions.
Moose-tache wrote:But linguoboy, how on Earth do you pronounce lobotomy if it doesn't rhyme with my description of photobomby? To me, it's lo-BOT-omy. Do you say LO-bo-TO-my or something?
No, I say [ɫəˈbɑˑɾəmi], not *[ɫəˈtʰɑˑbəmi], so the two words don't rhyme.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 4:12 pm
by Richard W
To me, photobomby is Latinate, not 'pure' English suffix at all, so the second 'b' is no more silent than in bombard (just as the 'g' in signify or signal is a full consonant), so I would pronounce the word photo-BOM-BY if it's an abstract noun, analogously to thermoPLASty. Now, if it meant 'to do with photobombs', then it would be photo-BOMmy.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 4:26 pm
by Travis B.
Richard W wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 4:12 pm
To me,
photobomby is Latinate, not 'pure' English suffix at all, so the second 'b' is no more silent than in
bombard (just as the 'g' in
signify or
signal is a full consonant), so I would pronounce the word photo-BOM-BY if it's an abstract noun, analogously to
thermoPLASty. Now, if it meant 'to do with photobombs', then it would be photo-BOMmy.
See, the "to do with photobombs" meaning is the meaning that immediately comes to mind when I see
photobomby - the other meaning is not intuitive for me at all.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 6:12 pm
by Richard W
Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 4:26 pm
Richard W wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 4:12 pm
To me,
photobomby is Latinate, not 'pure' English suffix at all, so the second 'b' is no more silent than in
bombard (just as the 'g' in
signify or
signal is a full consonant), so I would pronounce the word photo-BOM-BY if it's an abstract noun, analogously to
thermoPLASty. Now, if it meant 'to do with photobombs', then it would be photo-BOMmy.
See, the "to do with photobombs" meaning is the meaning that immediately comes to mind when I see
photobomby - the other meaning is not intuitive for me at all.
But Moosetache told us, "This pattern was later extended by analogy to any word with nominalizing -y, even in words with no Greek etymology, like "photobomby." Therefore, the word we were discussing cannot be an adjective!
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 6:58 pm
by Moose-tache
Richard W wrote: ↑Wed May 18, 2022 6:12 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 4:26 pm
Richard W wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 4:12 pm
To me,
photobomby is Latinate, not 'pure' English suffix at all, so the second 'b' is no more silent than in
bombard (just as the 'g' in
signify or
signal is a full consonant), so I would pronounce the word photo-BOM-BY if it's an abstract noun, analogously to
thermoPLASty. Now, if it meant 'to do with photobombs', then it would be photo-BOMmy.
See, the "to do with photobombs" meaning is the meaning that immediately comes to mind when I see
photobomby - the other meaning is not intuitive for me at all.
But Moosetache told us, "This pattern was later extended by analogy to any word with nominalizing -y, even in words with no Greek etymology, like "photobomby." Therefore, the word we were discussing cannot be an adjective!
Indeed, I always have adjectival -y with no stress change. This could be far form universal, though. One thing I've learned from this thread is that I need a survey of exactly how people pronounce words in English before I can draw any conclusions.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:59 pm
by mocha
But what about the comparative form, photobombier? Or the superlative, photobombiest?
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:49 pm
by Linguoboy
mocha wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 7:59 pm
But what about the comparative form, photobombier?
I kind of want to say /fotoˌbɔ̃mˈbje/ and assume this is what you call a photobomber in French.
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:01 pm
by mocha
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:49 pm
mocha wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 7:59 pm
But what about the comparative form, photobombier?
I kind of want to say /fotoˌbɔ̃mˈbje/ and assume this is what you call a photobomber in French.
I think I prefer *photobombeur so there's presumably a *photobombeuse, which sounds even more ridiculous
Re: English Primary and Secondary Stress
Posted: Sun May 29, 2022 5:34 am
by Ryusenshi
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:49 pm
I kind of want to say /fotoˌbɔ̃mˈbje/ and assume this is what you call a photobomber in French.
Photobombier sounds like someone who photobombs for a living, while
photobombeur could be either a professional or an amateur. Though it could be an adjective:
l'art photobombier, photobomb art.