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Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:54 am
by anteallach
Ketsuban wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:23 am
Given that that's a train
in Aachen itself how confident are you the English-language announcement was for the benefit of native English speakers and not (for example) speakers of another language who have expectations about the small quantity of English they do understand? Wikipedia says the name Aix-la-Chapelle is "traditional English", which aside from the Twitter joke about British English being "English (Traditional)" and American English being "English (Simplified)" I wouldn't be surprised to learn means "English as sometimes practiced in non-English-speaking countries because there isn't a groundswell of native English speakers to keep it up-to-date". Casually searching the BBC news website for "Aachen" gets me stories in and relating to Aachen, but searching for "Aix-la-Chapelle" gets me nothing relevant (e.g. low-Levenshtein-distance results for stories which contain the word "chapel") so I feel reasonably confident saying that at least in the UK (where I am) the consensus exonym is "Aachen".
I think it was just that whoever was making the announcement thought that the "traditional English" use of the French name was still more current than it actually is; on other occasions when I've been through there it's been called "Aachen" in the English announcements, as I'd expect. (There were also French announcements, in which it was "Aix-la-Chapelle", again as expected.) On the other side of the coin, I also once heard Munich called "München" (with what sounded like an English spelling pronunciation of that) in an English language announcement on a German train.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:39 pm
by Raphael
anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:54 amOn the other side of the coin, I also once heard Munich called "München" (with what sounded like an English spelling pronunciation of that) in an English language announcement on a German train.
Thank you for travelling with Deutsche Bahn!
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:58 pm
by Raphael
anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:54 amOn the other side of the coin, I also once heard Munich called "München" (with what sounded like an English spelling pronunciation of that) in an English language announcement on a German train.
By the way, this reminds of how, whenever German soccer league team Bayern München gets mentioned in an English-language context, they're called "Bayern Munich". Shouldn't people either leave both parts of the name in the original German, or translate both parts of the name into English?
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:25 pm
by zompist
Obviously it should be Bavaria München.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 pm
by Richard W
Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:58 pm
anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:54 amOn the other side of the coin, I also once heard Munich called "München" (with what sounded like an English spelling pronunciation of that) in an English language announcement on a German train.
By the way, this reminds of how, whenever German soccer league team Bayern München gets mentioned in an English-language context, they're called "Bayern Munich". Shouldn't people either leave both parts of the name in the original German, or translate both parts of the name into English?
Perhaps the English pronunciation of
München is as 'Munich'. The spelling of the place name just screams, 'You're gong to get me wrong!' to an Englishman. As an alternative explanation, perhaps
Bayern and
Bavaria(n) are just too different.
I'm fairly confident there's a German team whose English name is
München Gladbach /mɜːnkən ɡlædbæk/. Is that any better for youʔ
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:12 am
by Rounin Ryuuji
Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 pm
I'm fairly confident there's a German team whose English name is
München Gladbach /mɜːnkən ɡlædbæk/. Is that any better for youʔ
Why would ü have the
nurse vowel? Wouldn't /j/ +
goose, as in
muse, music, mule, mucus, mute be closer?
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:03 am
by zompist
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:12 am
Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 pm
I'm fairly confident there's a German team whose English name is
München Gladbach /mɜːnkən ɡlædbæk/. Is that any better for youʔ
Why would ü have the
nurse vowel? Wouldn't /j/ +
goose, as in
muse, music, mule, mucus, mute be closer?
Wait till you hear how people say Goethe St. in Chicago...
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:47 am
by Raphael
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:12 am
Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 pm
I'm fairly confident there's a German team whose English name is
München Gladbach /mɜːnkən ɡlædbæk/. Is that any better for youʔ
Why would ü have the
nurse vowel? Wouldn't /j/ +
goose, as in
muse, music, mule, mucus, mute be closer?
The city and team are called M
önchengladbach, with an "
ö". Though the team at least is often colloquially shortened to "Gladbach".
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:44 am
by Rounin Ryuuji
zompist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:03 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:12 am
Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 pm
I'm fairly confident there's a German team whose English name is
München Gladbach /mɜːnkən ɡlædbæk/. Is that any better for youʔ
Why would ü have the
nurse vowel? Wouldn't /j/ +
goose, as in
muse, music, mule, mucus, mute be closer?
Wait till you hear how people say Goethe St. in Chicago...
Why would I be terribly surprised at that? It doesn't contain ü or ue.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:20 am
by Travis B.
zompist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:03 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:12 am
Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 pm
I'm fairly confident there's a German team whose English name is
München Gladbach /mɜːnkən ɡlædbæk/. Is that any better for youʔ
Why would ü have the
nurse vowel? Wouldn't /j/ +
goose, as in
muse, music, mule, mucus, mute be closer?
Wait till you hear how people say Goethe St. in Chicago...
Pronouncing German <oe> with /ɜr/ is an atrocity. (I do understand how many
British people do this, though, because their /ɜː/ is often really more like [œː]...)
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:30 am
by Ares Land
Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:58 pm
By the way, this reminds of how, whenever German soccer league team Bayern München gets mentioned in an English-language context, they're called "Bayern Munich". Shouldn't people either leave both parts of the name in the original German, or translate both parts of the name into English?
We do the same in French. I think it follows the same structure as Real Madrid. Bayern is taken to be the club name. You even hear
le Bayern de Munich.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:37 am
by Raphael
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:44 am
Why would I be terribly surprised at that? It doesn't contain ü or ue.
Neither does M
önchengladbach.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:25 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:37 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:44 am
Why would I be terribly surprised at that? It doesn't contain ü or ue.
Neither does M
önchengladbach.
It was mistranscribed with ü when I was expressing surprise at the pronunciation. I'm used to ö having the
nurse vowel.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:02 pm
by Richard W
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:25 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:37 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:44 am
Why would I be terribly surprised at that? It doesn't contain ü or ue.
Neither does M
önchengladbach.
It was mistranscribed with ü when I was expressing surprise at the pronunciation. I'm used to ö having the
nurse vowel.
Where is the mistranscription? There's a principle of English law that one's name is the one is known by, not the one you'd rather be known by. If you search with Google, you'll find a great many references to the name spelt with u umlaut. The change of spelling has not been universally accepted.
Getting back towards the topic, we aren't in any great hurry to call Rome 'Roma', or even to go back to calling the Germans Dutch.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:17 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:02 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:25 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:37 am
Neither does M
önchengladbach.
It was mistranscribed with ü when I was expressing surprise at the pronunciation. I'm used to ö having the
nurse vowel.
Where is the mistranscription?
First I see this place I haven't actually heard of before spelled with "ü", and express surprise at an indicated English pronunciation with the
nurse-vowel (I think reasonably; usually German ü is pronounced in English with yod +
goose), then people tell me it's a typographical error, and the word should have ö, which would appear to indicate that the initial spelling was a mistranscription. It seems there's more to the matter than I'd understood, I guess, but given the context, I think that imagining the ü-spelling was a typographical error is also reasonable.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:57 am
by Linguoboy
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:44 am
zompist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:03 amWait till you hear how people say Goethe St. in Chicago...
Why would I be terribly surprised at that? It doesn't contain ü or ue.
Alas, since they switched to recorded announcements on mass transit I rarely hear the classic /ˈgoːθiː/ pronunciation anymore (and I never heard the fabled trisyllabic variant in the wild, I just remember being smirkingly told that people said it this way).
Speaking of exonyms, it's always fun to look at foreign renditions of "Chicago" since they almost never come close to approximating a local pronunciation. (I'm especially amused by how many get suckered in by orthographic <ch> and begin with an affricate.) Foreign renditions of "Missouri" and "Maryland" are almost as amusing.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:23 am
by Ares Land
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:57 am
Speaking of exonyms, it's always fun to look at foreign renditions of "Chicago" since they almost never come close to approximating a local pronunciation. (I'm especially amused by how many get suckered in by orthographic <ch> and begin with an affricate.) Foreign renditions of "Missouri" and "Maryland" are almost as amusing.
I have something /ʃɪˈkɑ.ɡoʊ/ which I got from
When the Levee Breaks, of all places.
I think I do better with Missouri because of various spelling pronunciation like Mizzourah or Mizzerah.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:32 am
by Travis B.
In the dialect here in southeastern Wisconsin, Chicago is /ʃəˈkɔɡoʊ/ [ʃɘˈkʰɒːɡo(ː)], but people who realize /ɔ/ (except before /r/) as [ɑ] such my mother (who is from Kenosha) realize it as [ʃɘˈkʰɑːɡoː] (but note that these people do not have the cot-cought merger as the same people realize /ɑ/ as [a] except adjacent to /kw gw r w h/).
As for Maryland and Missouri, I personally have /ˈmɛrəˌlɪnd/ [ˈmɛːʁˤəːˌʟ̞ɘ̃ːnt] and /məˈzɜri/ [mɘˈzʁ̩ˤːʁˤi(ː)].
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:39 am
by Linguoboy
Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:23 amI think I do better with Missouri because of various spelling pronunciation like Mizzourah or Mizzerah.
Except for that's probably a minority pronunciation in Missouri itself.
Re: Luhansk vs Lugansk
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:48 am
by Travis B.
Question for you guys - how do you pronounce Milwaukee?