Zompist Bboard Again

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:52 amI have TRAP in Halloween, and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE. Those of you who have LOT: do you have it in any other -allow words (like hallow itself)? If not, I'm curious how the LOT pronunciation developed.

I have LOT in hallow but not callow, fallow, mallow, sallow, shallow, or tallow.

My guess is that we're dealing with a folk etymology.

I forgot about callow, shallow, and tallow - I have /æ/ in all of those.

Edit: I also have it in fallow.

Other than allow, I think just about all my -allow words have [æ].

I just discovered something strange - I have [a] in Halloween, which is strange because LOT for me after /h/ is normally [ɑ], in spite of the NCVS. I have the same exact vowel in H[a]lloween as I do in l[a]t and not as in h[ɑ]t.

I don't think any Brit merges hallow and hollow, which to me sound identical in most American pronunciations. However, I think I pronounce it with a [a] rather than a [æ], maybe thats a Welsh accent thing though?

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:16 pm I don't think any Brit merges hallow and hollow, which to me sound identical in most American pronunciations. However, I think I pronounce it with a [a] rather than a [æ], maybe thats a Welsh accent thing though?

Don't a large proportion of Brits today have [a] for TRAP, with that pronunciation being found in SSBE, most northern EngE varieties, most Scottish English varieties, and most Welsh English varieties, with actual [æ] being limited to more old-fashioned RP varieties?

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:33 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:52 amI have TRAP in Halloween, and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE. Those of you who have LOT: do you have it in any other -allow words (like hallow itself)? If not, I'm curious how the LOT pronunciation developed.

I have LOT in hallow but not callow, fallow, mallow, sallow, shallow, or tallow.

My guess is that we're dealing with a folk etymology.

I don't see why Halloween would be associated with hollow, assuming that is what you are implying. Note that the -een component is probably opaque for many Americans, so the word is just another morphologically unanalysable word rather than than a compound with a cranberry morpheme ready for plucking. I would instead see it as being due to influence from Scots, which regularly has a reflex of Middle English /au/ (Vowel 12 [ɑ~ɔ]; broadly equivalent to English THOUGHT) in callow, fallow, hallow, etc. Since this vowel was shortened due to the operation of the Scottish Vowel Length Rule (SVLR), it was identified with AmE LOT rather than THOUGHT (historically the distinction between the two was based purely on length; i.e. LOT /ɒ/ vs. THOUGHT /ɒː/).

As for me, I have TRAP [æ~ɛ] in all the relevant words, except for mallow, which occasionally has STRUT [ɐ], probably by analogy with mellow, which also usually has TRAP (due to the salary–celery merger, common in NZE), but sporadically STRUT for me. This unexpected STRUT can also occur when a vowel-initial suffix is attached to a word with historic /ɛl/: smell /smɐo/, smelly /smɐli~smɐoi/ (probably by analogy with words with historic /ʌl/, which also end in the same diphthong), as well as in Delhi, hello, umbrella, Wellington (besides /æ/), yellow.

Sol717 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:30 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:33 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:52 amI have TRAP in Halloween, and am not aware of any other pronunciation in BrE. Those of you who have LOT: do you have it in any other -allow words (like hallow itself)? If not, I'm curious how the LOT pronunciation developed.

I have LOT in hallow but not callow, fallow, mallow, sallow, shallow, or tallow.

My guess is that we're dealing with a folk etymology.

I don't see why Halloween would be associated with hollow, assuming that is what you are implying. Note that the -een component is probably opaque for many Americans, so the word is just another morphologically unanalysable word rather than than a compound with a cranberry morpheme ready for plucking.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I knew as a kid about "hallow(ed) e'en", but that never tempted me to put an [æ] in Halloween, any more than I'd pronounce Christmas as Christ Mass, or alone as all one.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:16 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:16 pm I don't think any Brit merges hallow and hollow, which to me sound identical in most American pronunciations. However, I think I pronounce it with a [a] rather than a [æ], maybe thats a Welsh accent thing though?

Don't a large proportion of Brits today have [a] for TRAP, with that pronunciation being found in SSBE, most northern EngE varieties, most Scottish English varieties, and most Welsh English varieties, with actual [æ] being limited to more old-fashioned RP varieties?

I'd say [æ] is definitely the TRAP vowel in northern England, even in areas like Cheshire and the Midlands, because there is, after all, more to England than the south, where I think [a] probably is in TRAP.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:39 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:16 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:16 pm I don't think any Brit merges hallow and hollow, which to me sound identical in most American pronunciations. However, I think I pronounce it with a [a] rather than a [æ], maybe thats a Welsh accent thing though?

Don't a large proportion of Brits today have [a] for TRAP, with that pronunciation being found in SSBE, most northern EngE varieties, most Scottish English varieties, and most Welsh English varieties, with actual [æ] being limited to more old-fashioned RP varieties?

I'd say [æ] is definitely the TRAP vowel in northern England, even in areas like Cheshire and the Midlands, because there is, after all, more to England than the south, where I think [a] probably is in TRAP.

Okay, I must have been conflating northern EngE and Scottish English pronunciation then.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:30 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:39 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:16 pm
Don't a large proportion of Brits today have [a] for TRAP, with that pronunciation being found in SSBE, most northern EngE varieties, most Scottish English varieties, and most Welsh English varieties, with actual [æ] being limited to more old-fashioned RP varieties?

I'd say [æ] is definitely the TRAP vowel in northern England, even in areas like Cheshire and the Midlands, because there is, after all, more to England than the south, where I think [a] probably is in TRAP.

Okay, I must have been conflating northern EngE and Scottish English pronunciation then.

I would agree that Scottish English, broadly speaking, has [a] for TRAP though there may be varieties I'm unaware of. I'd say that [æ] for TRAP is common in South Wales Valleys English, maybe as far as Cardiff and Newport areas. North Wales definitely has [a] in TRAP, definitely the north-west bastion of the Welsh language. North East Wales is a much more transient place, full of influence from North West England, but I think areas like Denbighshire, Flintshire, and Wrexham natively have [a] in TRAP. I'll be paying much closer attention to my colleagues now to see if I can spot anything to confirm this.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:30 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:39 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:16 pm
Don't a large proportion of Brits today have [a] for TRAP, with that pronunciation being found in SSBE, most northern EngE varieties, most Scottish English varieties, and most Welsh English varieties, with actual [æ] being limited to more old-fashioned RP varieties?

I'd say [æ] is definitely the TRAP vowel in northern England, even in areas like Cheshire and the Midlands, because there is, after all, more to England than the south, where I think [a] probably is in TRAP.

Okay, I must have been conflating northern EngE and Scottish English pronunciation then.

I'd agree with your original post: northern England generally has [a] in TRAP, except for speakers influenced by traditional RP. (I once encountered someone who had the curious pattern of the Northern [a] in BATH but the RP [æ] in TRAP, at least in most words.)

Sol717 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:30 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:33 amMy guess is that we're dealing with a folk etymology.

I don't see why Halloween would be associated with hollow, assuming that is what you are implying. Note that the -een component is probably opaque for many Americans, so the word is just another morphologically unanalysable word rather than than a compound with a cranberry morpheme ready for plucking. I would instead see it as being due to influence from Scots, which regularly has a reflex of Middle English /au/ (Vowel 12 [ɑ~ɔ]; broadly equivalent to English THOUGHT) in callow, fallow, hallow, etc. Since this vowel was shortened due to the operation of the Scottish Vowel Length Rule (SVLR), it was identified with AmE LOT rather than THOUGHT (historically the distinction between the two was based purely on length; i.e. LOT /ɒ/ vs. THOUGHT /ɒː/).

Why just in this word, though? Because Halloween entred American English from Scottish English? I would have thought Irish English a more likely source given the ethnic makeup of the USA.

I just meant that hallow isn't in the active vocabulary of most NAE speakers. But hollow is, so it's easy enough to see how its pronunciation would spread. (I think it's a misunderstanding of how folk etymology works to think that speakers need a convincing synchronic explanation of the false etymology in order to change their pronunciation. Compare, for instance, the common pronunciation of karaoke as /ˌkɛ.ɹiˈoʊ.ki/. NAE speakers could quite easily better approximate the Japanese pronunciation--there is a personal name Cara after all. But Carrie is more common and probably influenced the shift of the first vowel.)

Another theory which came to mind for Halloween with LOT: it appears that it's most associated with roughly the same area as the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Is it at all possible that the phonetic environment in that word (trisyllable, before /l/) was particularly unfavourable for the raising and diphthongisation of TRAP, and so that it got effectively "left behind" by the shift and absorbed by fronted LOT? Something like that seems to have happened with broad and the Great Vowel Shift.

(Probably wrong, but I thought I'd float it anyway.)

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:42 pm Another theory which came to mind for Halloween with LOT: it appears that it's most associated with roughly the same area as the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Is it at all possible that the phonetic environment in that word (trisyllable, before /l/) was particularly unfavourable for the raising and diphthongisation of TRAP, and so that it got effectively "left behind" by the shift and absorbed by fronted LOT? Something like that seems to have happened with broad and the Great Vowel Shift.

(Probably wrong, but I thought I'd float it anyway.)

I do find H[ɛ]lloween and h[ɛ]llow to be difficult to pronounce for some reason I do not understand; something about being sandwiched between /h/ and /l/ possibly.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:50 pm I do find H[ɛ]lloween and h[ɛ]llow to be difficult to pronounce for some reason I do not understand; something about being sandwiched between /h/ and /l/ possibly.

Like hell, help, Helen, Hellenic, hellebore, helicopter, helmet?

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:01 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:50 pm I do find H[ɛ]lloween and h[ɛ]llow to be difficult to pronounce for some reason I do not understand; something about being sandwiched between /h/ and /l/ possibly.

Like hell, help, Helen, Hellenic, hellebore, helicopter, helmet?

Nope, those have [ɜ] for me. DRESS is a central vowel for me, except in careful speech, and then it is still further back than TRAP.

I've just tried pronouncing those hel- words myself; I think I back [ɛ] slightly when the [ɫ] is in the coda (as in hell, help), but not when it isn't (as in hellebore, helicopter); I wouldn't say it's far enough to be [ɜ], though — my dress vowel is still usually [ɛ].

I noticed at church yesterday, Pastor did not have [æ] in “hallowed”. (NE Ohio, for the record.)

What vowel did he have?