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Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 6:06 pm
by StrangerCoug
Let's bring this back.
Here's a phonology with a transcription system that I think could use a second pair of eyes:
Consonants
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ñ /ɲ/ | g̃ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Prenasalized stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | g̃g /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | ts /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | ṭṣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | q /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Prenasalized affricate | | ndz /ⁿd͡z/ | ndl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇḍẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḍḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ñj /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | x /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
Yes, several unusual consonants. A number of these are supposed to have come from consonant sequences that have coalesced together, and there are no more consonant sequences left (nor are there any more coda consonants—every consonant now has to be followed by a vowel). I decided to do away with several other types of contrasts because it got really kitchen-sinky to me with them.
The prenasalized lateral affricates are supposed to be close to completing an ongoing sound change where they instead become prenasalized laterally-released stops.
Vowels
Comparatively sane as far as stressed vowels go:
| Front | Central | Back |
| Close | i /i/ | | u /u/ |
| Close-mid | e /e/ | | o /o/ |
| Open-mid | ai /ε/ | | au /ɔ/ |
| Open | | a /a/ | |
I have
aï /ai/ and
aü /au/ for diphthongs, too.
The language has vowel reduction, so my unstressed vowel inventory looks just like this (with no diphthongs):
| Front | Central | Back |
| Close | i /ɪ/ | | u /ʊ/ |
| Open | | a /ɐ/ | |
What changes to the transcription do you people think are worth making?
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 6:29 pm
by Travis B.
The only thing that sticks out to me as unusual about this system is the contrast between alveolar and retroflex laterals; everything else seems unremarkable to me.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 7:27 pm
by Richard W
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 6:29 pm
The only thing that sticks out to me as unusual about this system is the contrast between alveolar and retroflex laterals; everything else seems unremarkable to me.
Dental versus retroflex laterals has ample precedent in Middle Indic.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 7:57 pm
by Travis B.
Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 7:27 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 6:29 pm
The only thing that sticks out to me as unusual about this system is the contrast between alveolar and retroflex laterals; everything else seems unremarkable to me.
Dental versus retroflex laterals has ample precedent in Middle Indic.
I should say, though, that this has an unusually rich inventory of lateral consonants.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:01 pm
by StrangerCoug
Maybe this for the transliteration of the consonants instead, to avoid trigraphs?
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ñ /ɲ/ | g̃ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Prenasalized stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | g̃g /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | c /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | c̣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | q /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Prenasalized affricate | | nz /ⁿd͡z/ | nl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ñj /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | x /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:02 pm
by StrangerCoug
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 7:57 pm
I should say, though, that this has an unusually rich inventory of lateral consonants.
It does. I agree.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:02 pm
by Travis B.
StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:01 pm
Maybe this for the transliteration of the consonants instead, to avoid trigraphs?
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ñ /ɲ/ | g̃ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Preaspirated stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | g̃g /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | c /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | c̣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | q /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Preaspirated affricate | | nz /ⁿd͡z/ | nl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ñj /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | x /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
I honestly don't see any problem with the trigraphs myself.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:07 pm
by Travis B.
One other thing ─ I would call the "preaspirated" consonants prenasalized myself, and would note that I honestly have never heard of preaspirated consonants (which are practically universally voiceless) turning into voiced prenasalized consonants. However, the series you have here are not unusual by any count ─ it is not that uncommon to have nasal, tenuis stop, voiced prenasalized stop, tenuis affricate, voiced prenasalized affricate, voiceless fricative, and approximant series without having plain voiced stops or affricates or fricatives.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:11 pm
by StrangerCoug
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:07 pm
One other thing ─ I would call the "preaspirated" consonants
prenasalized myself, and would note that I honestly have never heard of preaspirated consonants (which are practically universally voiceless) turning into voiced prenasalized consonants.
Good catch—I meant prenasalized, not preaspirated. Edited my posts to correct it.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:14 pm
by StrangerCoug
I think I like this a little better. Avoids trigraphs
and makes the relationship between the tenuis central affricates and the tenuis central fricatives clearer.
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ń /ɲ/ | ñ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Prenasalized stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | ñg /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | ts /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | ṭṣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | tś /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Prenasalized affricate | | nz /ⁿd͡z/ | nl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ńj /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | ś /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
Edited to apply the same principle to the palatals, reassigning ñ
in the process.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:24 pm
by StrangerCoug
Actually, which do you people prefer for /ᶮd͡ʑ/: ńj or ńź?
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2026 9:26 pm
by StrangerCoug
Or we can take a third option, since there was a comment that the trigraphs were fine:
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ń /ɲ/ | ñ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Prenasalized stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | ñg /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | ts /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | ṭṣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | tś /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Prenasalized affricate | | ndz /ⁿd͡z/ | ndl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇḍẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḍḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ńdź /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | ś /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2026 9:16 am
by Travis B.
StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 9:26 pm
Or we can take a third option, since there was a comment that the trigraphs were fine:
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ń /ɲ/ | ñ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Prenasalized stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | ñg /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | ts /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | ṭṣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | tś /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Prenasalized affricate | | ndz /ⁿd͡z/ | ndl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇḍẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḍḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ńdź /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | ś /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
As a general personal opinion, I would say I like this system the best.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2026 12:15 pm
by Man in Space
StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 8:24 pmActually, which do you people prefer for /ᶮd͡ʑ/:
ńj or
ńź?
Purely aesthetically,
ńj. For internal consistency,
ńź.
Re: Phonology, Transliteration, and Transcription Critique Thread
Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2026 12:33 pm
by WeepingElf
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 31, 2026 9:16 am
StrangerCoug wrote: ↑Fri Jan 30, 2026 9:26 pm
Or we can take a third option, since there was a comment that the trigraphs were fine:
| Labial | Central alveolar | Lateral alveolar | Central retroflex | Lateral retroflex | Palatal | Velar |
| Nasal | m /m/ | n /n/ | | ṇ /ɳ/ | | ń /ɲ/ | ñ /ŋ/ |
| Tenuis stop | p /p/ | t /t/ | | ṭ /ʈ/ | | | k /k/ |
| Prenasalized stop | mb /ᵐb/ | nd /ⁿd/ | | ṇḍ /ᶯɖ/ | | | ñg /ᵑɡ/ |
| Tenuis affricate | | ts /t͡s/ | tł /t͡ɬ/ | ṭṣ /ʈ͡ʂ/ | ṭł̣ /ʈ͡ꞎ/ | tś /t͡ɕ/ | |
| Prenasalized affricate | | ndz /ⁿd͡z/ | ndl /ⁿd͡ɮ~ⁿdˡ/ | ṇḍẓ /ᶯɖ͡ʐ/ | ṇḍḷ /ᶯɖ͡𝼅~ᶯɖᶩ/ | ńdź /ᶮd͡ʑ/ | |
| Fricative | f /f/ | s /s/ | ł /ɬ/ | ṣ /ʂ/ | ł̣ /ꞎ/ | ś /ɕ/ | h /x/ |
| Approximant | | | l /l/ | r /ɻ/ | ḷ /ɭ/ | y /j/ | w /w/ |
As a general personal opinion, I would say I like this system the best.
Chiming in late because I had abstained from the ZBB because of the technical issues it had, but I like this phoneme inventory and also this transcription.