Zompist Bboard Again

Imralu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:50 pm One of my pet hates is when a song will rhyme "again" with a FACE word but still say it with the DRESS vowel. Like, you've got the option to make it rhyme and it's clearly meant to and you're just choosing to say the variant that doesn't rhyme? Why???

Poetic tradition; cf. the requirement in some French poetic forms to rhyme silent final consonants

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:05 pm

Imralu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:50 pm One of my pet hates is when a song will rhyme "again" with a FACE word but still say it with the DRESS vowel. Like, you've got the option to make it rhyme and it's clearly meant to and you're just choosing to say the variant that doesn't rhyme? Why???

Poetic tradition; cf. the requirement in some French poetic forms to rhyme silent final consonants

Oh, another one I hate is in German, rhyming short or long i or e with the same-length ü or ö respectively. It's tradition because Goethe did it, but Goethe's dialect unrounded front-rounded vowels and merged them with the unrounded ones. I guess nothing is as bad as that song that rhymes "store" and "orange" though

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:30 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:40 amfrom /E/ :
get
...

Yesterday a Ukrainian friend shared a video of a friend of his singing in English and his pronunciation of get as [ɡɛt] was something that leapt out at me immediately. I would have a similar reaction to hearing pretty with stressed /ɛ/.

What? "Get" with /ɛ/ is completely standard and "pretty" with /ɛ/ is not. I've never heard anyone say "pretty" with /ɛ/ except for people learning English who are just going from the spelling. I've also never heard "get" with anything other than /ɛ/ in real life.The Ukrainian is fine!

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:52 pmcompletely standard

Cute. This is English after all.

(It's not remotely "standard" in North American English. I don't know if that's the accent he was aiming for, but it was a USAmerican song so it stands out.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:35 am

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:52 pmcompletely standard

Cute. This is English after all.

(It's not remotely "standard" in North American English. I don't know if that's the accent he was aiming for, but it was a USAmerican song so it stands out.)

I'm an American, and for me DRESS in get is the standard - actually, KIT in get sounds very distinctly dialectal to me.

I don't mind rhyming "i" and "e" sometimes, if the context justifies it, i. e. "general" and "mineral".

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:45 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:35 am

Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:52 pmcompletely standard

(It's not remotely "standard" in North American English. I don't know if that's the accent he was aiming for, but it was a USAmerican song so it stands out.)

I'm an American, and for me DRESS in get is the standard - actually, KIT in get sounds very distinctly dialectal to me.

I have [ɛ] in get too. Isn't "git" a bit of a southernism? I was hoping to find a dialect map, but sadly Google results are all about the source control system.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:44 pm Isn't "git" a bit of a southernism?

I have always associated "git" with the South myself.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:53 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:44 pm Isn't "git" a bit of a southernism?

I have always associated "git" with the South myself.

I think it's one of few "Southerinsms" I've managed to acquire, and that I use in all registers.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:35 am(It's not remotely "standard" in North American English. I don't know if that's the accent he was aiming for, but it was a USAmerican song so it stands out.)

Isn't Merriam Webster the most trusted US English dictionary? It literally calls the pronunciation with the KIT vowel "nonstandard". Wiktionary, which I know anyone can edit, says "regionally restricted, less formal". The Ukrainian is completely fine.

Imralu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:27 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:35 am(It's not remotely "standard" in North American English. I don't know if that's the accent he was aiming for, but it was a USAmerican song so it stands out.)

Isn't Merriam Webster the most trusted US English dictionary? It literally calls the pronunciation with the KIT vowel "nonstandard". Wiktionary, which I know anyone can edit, says "regionally restricted, less formal". The Ukrainian is completely fine.

This thread was the first place I had seen it suggested that KIT in get was not at least dialectal, if not overtly non-standard.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:22 pm

Imralu wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:27 am

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:35 am(It's not remotely "standard" in North American English. I don't know if that's the accent he was aiming for, but it was a USAmerican song so it stands out.)

Isn't Merriam Webster the most trusted US English dictionary? It literally calls the pronunciation with the KIT vowel "nonstandard". Wiktionary, which I know anyone can edit, says "regionally restricted, less formal". The Ukrainian is completely fine.

This thread was the first place I had seen it suggested that KIT in get was not at least dialectal, if not overtly non-standard.

Same. I’m not even American, but it sounds like banjo English to me.

Listening more closely, I find that I actually have dress in some cases when "get" is stressed, but it tends to be kit in some phrasal (like get up and get out).

mocha wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:41 am I notice I have basically a similar but opposite situation - randomly lowering the "bit" vowel to the "bet" vowel for a handful of words, like "milk" and "pillow". I think there are examples without an L, but I can't think of any.

The only word, though, on that list I use the "bit" vowel for is "been".

I just recalled such a word. "Symmetry". For some reason, I use <bet> there.

I'm surprised Merriam-Webster lists get with the KIT vowel as nonstandard. I would say it's the more normal pronunciation in the US.

Hominid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:38 pm I'm surprised Merriam-Webster lists get with the KIT vowel as nonstandard. I would say it's the more normal pronunciation in the US.

Where are you from? The perceived standardness of KIT in get likely depends on where you are from.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:51 pm

Hominid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 4:38 pm I'm surprised Merriam-Webster lists get with the KIT vowel as nonstandard. I would say it's the more normal pronunciation in the US.

Where are you from? The perceived standardness of KIT in get likely depends on where you are from.

Western New England, but also California and I speak something pretty close to General American.

Hominid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:08 pm Western New England, but also California and I speak something pretty close to General American.

I would not assume you speak "General American" ─ I once, ages ago (before I started posting on here), assumed I spoke something resembling "General American" ─ and how I actually speak is actually not anything like General American.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:54 pm

Hominid wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:08 pm Western New England, but also California and I speak something pretty close to General American.

I would not assume you speak "General American" ─ I once, ages ago (before I started posting on here), assumed I spoke something resembling "General American" ─ and how I actually speak is actually not anything like General American.

I'm not assuming that; I've come to that conclusion after examining my speech and General American carefully. I'm sure there are some differences, but most of my speech is pretty close to normal for the US, especially for younger speakers.