Zompist Bboard Again

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:13 pm English can be used to speak the words of Enkindu's lovers, as can Elgin's Liaden(sp)...but neither of these languages were created to do so.

all languages have the function of being able to transmit everything,
whether they have been built by a natural community, or by an individual...

I'm glad to know that a fictitious language like Liaden has adopted this cardinal objective of natural languages,
and is able to escape from its fictitious universe to be able to spread in the real world,
and who knows, like the conlangs of the major entertaienment companies,
to have more international speakers than the auxlang supposedly built for this purpose...

BTW: It's Láadan, not "Liaden".

oh I thought for a moment it was about Liaden
but you're right, it's the much-lamented Suzette Haden Elgin's Láadan...
with her language for women, I don't know if she wasn't aiming for too partisan a community,
but the possibility of communication was very much at the heart of her work...

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:00 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 10:13 pm English can be used to speak the words of Enkindu's lovers, as can Elgin's Liaden(sp)...but neither of these languages were created to do so.

my apologies for the faulty spelling of the name; I knew it was wrong (ergo the SP there), but had no idea what the proper spelling was.

thank you.

all languages have the function of being able to transmit everything,
whether they have been built by a natural community, or by an individual...

I'm glad to know that a fictitious language like Liaden has adopted this cardinal objective of natural languages,

Not sure if you're putting a cart before the horse, or if you're getting some Sapir in your Whorf.

I've seen people use Klingon to talk about dinosaurs and Young Earth Creationists -- despite the fact that Klingon was not made for the purpose of discussing either of them; there is no "objective" in Klingon or English or most conlangs, that require them to be able to handle certain topics.

xxx wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:47 am oh I thought for a moment it was about Liaden
but you're right, it's the much-lamented Suzette Haden Elgin's Láadan...
with her language for women, I don't know if she wasn't aiming for too partisan a community,

Women?

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:32 pm I've seen people use Klingon to talk about dinosaurs and Young Earth Creationists

I consider that Klingons, like certain fictional languages of major companies, like the new auxlangs...
which have come out of the realm of fictional languages,
thanks to the fans who have brought them into the real world,
and made them capable of talking about anything...

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:45 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:32 pm I've seen people use Klingon to talk about dinosaurs and Young Earth Creationists

I consider that Klingons, like certain fictional languages of major companies, like the new auxlangs...
which have come out of the realm of fictional languages,
thanks to the fans who have brought them into the real world,
and made them capable of talking about anything...

Still not sure what you were meaning about them having a cardinal objective built into them.

a conlang must aim to be a real language,
and therefore capable of being an auxlang...

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:01 pm a conlang must aim to be a real language,

I've never heard that rule before...and I've been here for, I think, at least a decade. (here, the CBB, geocities, Langmaker...)

what did you think conlang meant...

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:12 pm what did you think conlang meant...

Constructed Language.

AuxLang is a subgroup of ConLang, not a synonym of it.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:02 pm

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:01 pm a conlang must aim to be a real language,

I've never heard that rule before...and I've been here for, I think, at least a decade. (here, the CBB, geocities, Langmaker...)

so a constucted language must aim to be a language...

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:02 pm

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:01 pm a conlang must aim to be a real language,

I've never heard that rule before...and I've been here for, I think, at least a decade. (here, the CBB, geocities, Langmaker...)

It goes against an entire tradition of aesthetics- or thought experiment based conlangs.

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:01 pm a conlang must aim to be a real language,
and therefore capable of being an auxlang...

Nope! Jeffrey Henning (the proprietor of the late, lamented LangMaker web site) famously called conlangs model languages. A conlang is not necessarily a complete language capable of fulfilling the communicative needs of a modern society. A fictional language, for instance, is usually just a model or an image of an imagined language, maybe just a grammar sketch with a few hundred words and a handful of sample texts. And the imagined language the conlang models may be one of a pre-modern society, lacking vocabulary for modern concepts, which are thus also missing in the conlang.

it's that many conlangs aren't actually that,
but are just beginnings in progress,
that only aim to be true languages...

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:41 pm it's that many conlangs aren't actually that,
but are just beginnings in progress,
that only aim to be true languages...

And this* is based upon...?

* = any of the three claims, or any combination thereof.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:35 pmAnd this is based upon...?

according to their name, they are constructed languages,
so they must be constructed and be languages...

and the goal of becoming a real language is part of the requirements,
together with that of being finally constructed...

but many constructed languages are in fact projects of constructed languages...
they should be called projlangs rather than conlangs, no...

I'm an adept of deductive language, and I tend to attach importance to the meaning of words...

but above all I defend conlangs, which are real languages in the same way as natural languages,
and which deserve to be used in the world, if only for the time of their constructor's life...

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:13 am

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:35 pmAnd this is based upon...?

according to their name, they are constructed languages,
so they must be constructed and be languages...

You've spent years on a linguistics forum, and you still think that you can reliably derive the "true meaning" of words, terms, or expressions by analyzing their components? Sigh...

For a start, we're having this discussion on a forum, which is part of a board, which our host provides using a technology called the World Wide Web. Despite this, it involves neither physical open spaces where merchants can physically sell their stuff while orators try to get the attention of the people, nor planks of wood attached to each other, nor thin threads spun by small eight-legged animals.

I have no ambition to stop anyone from saying nonsense,
including myself...
but sometimes common sense seems so far removed from usage
that it's good to point it out...

(I liked your second-degree description of the forum...)

so you're here to build something that's not aimed at being a language, what is it...

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 7:38 am(I liked your second-degree description of the forum...)

thats what forum means and originally meant.

so you're here to build something that's not aimed at being a language, what is it...

Making a conlang.
Yes, it involves linguistics in various aspects, but that does not mean the goal is always to make an AuxLang; sometimes the goal is simply to try out some feature one has encountered and is curious about, sometimes it is simply to generate names for a story or a map, sometimes it is to improve one's grasp of IRL linguistics, sometimes it is for other reasons.