Zompist Bboard Again

BGMan wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:16 am I've wondered for some time if Old Japanese had a more Korean-like vowel system?

An interesting discussion, but could we perhaps have it outside the ID subforum please?

(Unless you can transcribe a paper on the topic, that is!)

I've been a bit busy and focused on other hobbies when I've had time, but I finally went back to the original post to add the consonant inventory Martin was working from. I'll try to add some info from "Classical Japanese: A Grammar" by Haruo Shirane in the near future, as my schedule and energy allows.

As the name implies, "Classical Japanese: A Grammar" is more concerned with the grammar of Classical Japanese, however H. Shirane does mention some onbin sound changes, including when they first took place.

Table 3 on page 497 titled sound changes gives the following:
Verbs
i-sound change: Ki, gi, and shi in yodan become i; EX: 急ぎて -> 急いで
u-sound change: Hi, bi, and mi in yodan become u; EX: 歌ひて -> 歌うて
Nasalized sound change: Bi and mi in yodan and ni in nahen* become n followed by a voiced particle (de) or auxiliary verb (dari); EX: 学びて -> 学んで
Compressed sound change: Chi, hi, and ri in yodan and ri in rahen become tsu; EX: 失ひて -> 失つて -> 失って
Adjectives
i-sound change: Ki in ku and shiku adjectives becomes i; EX: 白き雲 -> 白い雲
u-sound change: Ku in ku and shiku adjectives becomes u; EX: 若く -> 若う
Nasalized sound change: Final ru of adjectives in rentaikei and adjectival verbs becomes n when followed by auxiliary verbs like meri or nari 多かるめり -> 多かんめり

It should be noted that some of these changes are at odds with each other and one change might be more common in Western Old Japanese while others were more common in Eastern Old Japanese.

In chapter 2 section 2 (2.2), Shirane mentions that the difference between unvoiced and voiced consonants (clear/muddy in Japanese, and really unnasalized and nasalized) p/b, t/d, k/g and s/z existed as early as the Nara period, but weren't written differently until much later.
2.3 tells how the syllabic n (or N) emerged in the Heian, but was usually written as whatever syllable had become N. So the nasalized sound changes about can be pinned down to the Heian.
4.4 also states that the verb sound changes above occurred during the Heian.
In regards to the adjective sound changes, a note in chapter 5 (5.3.2A) does not mention when these first appeared. But appendix 2 starting page 339 states that most of these sound changes began in the Heian and does not differentiate verb versus adjective, and in fact A2.1.4 mentions that these changes also occurred sporadically in nouns (EX: きさき "empress" -> きさい "same"), adverbs (まして "all the more" -> まいて "same") and other word groups. This is then followed by two notes: One mentioning that in the latter half of the Edo Period, り -> い in some verbs before -ます. The second is a Historical Note that the き/ぎ -> い is the earliest of the onbin changes, and found in the Man'youshuu (after 759 AD but before the end of the Nara Period.

*corrected for spelling from the text

Shirane wasn't really concerned with the phonology, but he seems to be starting from something like:

/m n/
/p b t d k g/
/s z (h)/
/w r j/

/a i u e o/

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I figured it's still a helpful data point.

This site may be of use to you'll

https://www.jlect.com/resources.php

Neonnaut wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:52 pm This site may be of use to you'll

https://www.jlect.com/resources.php

That is fantastic! Thank you

Jlect is super exciting until you realize how little breadth it has -- it's really not usable except as an online user interface for a selection of dictionaries -- standard language, a lot of Ryukyuan langauges, and a very patchy handful of topolects.

Unfortunately and obviously, the non-appearance of forms in JLect is used on the internet to prove that that form doesn't exist.

fusijui wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 11:34 pm Jlect is super exciting until you realize how little breadth it has -- it's really not usable except as an online user interface for a selection of dictionaries -- standard language, a lot of Ryukyuan langauges, and a very patchy handful of topolects.

Unfortunately and obviously, the non-appearance of forms in JLect is used on the internet to prove that that form doesn't exist.

It's still a resource I did not know about despite researching for a long while in this sphere, so I'm happy to have it to supplement others I already have.

You're right, and I apologize for jumping on it with both feet so quickly. It is an easy-to-use resource, and I also would guess that most potential users are mostly interested in Ryukyuan, which it's got fine coverage of. And for that matter, it's a pretty decent online dictionary for the standard language, I think.