Zompist Bboard Again

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:23 am Just to clarify, I haven't rejected morphological approaches. But I'm not asking about them, because I know the options there.

The problem is that using exclusively phonological approaches:

1. Sound change combines two word with similar pronunciation.
2. Phonological change cannot split two word that is already a homophone.

So, yeah, it is the only way.

Yes, this is not a mystery-- not to anyone here, probably. We all know how to conlang.

But we don't all know every possible sound change. That's why I was asking for sound changes. (And some people have provided good ideas, thanks.)

Akangka wrote: ↑Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:07 am
[*] Phonological change cannot split two word that is already a homophone.

So, yeah, it is the only way.

Not technically true. See, for example, English dialects that distinguish 'can' and 'can'. The two loopholes here are stress (i.e. different words may have different levels of stress in a sentence, which can interfere with usual stress-based rules) and lexical prominence - core vocabulary changes differently from peripheral vocabulary, so sound changes can affect one but not the other.

Tunumiisut (eastern Greenlandic) has l > t and ʁ > q (thought they are both mergers also, so I'm not sure if that still qualifies).

Hidatsa had *w > m unconditionally. Crow had a change whereby vowels following a glottalized consonant lengthened and acquired rising pitch ("Retniw's Law"). Proto-Crow-Hidatsa is proposed to have undergone a change whereby the first two vowels in a word swapped places, i.e. *CV1CV2 > CV2CV1-- but I don't know how much I buy this.

A few languages in Tibeto-Burman also did the "Verschärfung" thing, with *-w becoming -p and *j becoming *-k iirc. Also some parts of Austronesian not only had their glides undergo fortition, they also had the automatically added glides between i/u and another vowel undergo fortition, but differently to the proper glides, and in a few only the non-phonemic glides underwent fortition, so Narum *tian > tijiən, but *ayam > ayam.

High vowels can generate a consonant with the same POA word-finally. High vowels can also change into affricates at the same POA directly before another high vowel (as is believed to have happened in various situations in Lakes Plain).

High-tone vowels can break, and then you can epenthesize a consonant between the resulting vowels.

Pogostick Man wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:54 pm High-tone vowels can break, and then you can epenthesize a consonant between the resulting vowels.

Is there precedent for interactions between vowel tone and quality?

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:22 am

Pogostick Man wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:54 pm High-tone vowels can break, and then you can epenthesize a consonant between the resulting vowels.

Is there precedent for interactions between vowel tone and quality?

Salishan seems to have some examples of this, browsing the Index Diachronica: e.g. Chilliwack Halkomelem appears to have undergone *ú *á > á ɛ́. However it also looks like there may have been interference from ablaut patterns...

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:22 am

Pogostick Man wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:54 pm High-tone vowels can break, and then you can epenthesize a consonant between the resulting vowels.

Is there precedent for interactions between vowel tone and quality?

If we imagine an intermediate stage where tone contrasts become phonation contrasts (e.g. low tone to creaky voice), it seems very likely (on to see how various Khmer dialects are doing it).

Vilike wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:55 pm If we imagine an intermediate stage where tone contrasts become phonation contrasts (e.g. low tone to creaky voice), it seems very likely (on to see how various Khmer dialects are doing it).

Are there instances of tone contrasts becoming phonation contrasts, rather than the other way around?

(Bonus points if they aren't due to language contact.)

I vaguely recall something about Chatino getting its tones from vowels rather than from consonants.

dhok wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:29 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:22 am

Pogostick Man wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:54 pm High-tone vowels can break, and then you can epenthesize a consonant between the resulting vowels.

Is there precedent for interactions between vowel tone and quality?

Salishan seems to have some examples of this, browsing the Index Diachronica: e.g. Chilliwack Halkomelem appears to have undergone *ú *á > á ɛ́. However it also looks like there may have been interference from ablaut patterns...

Also the acute in Salishan is a stress marker, not a high-tone one.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:36 pm

Vilike wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:55 pm If we imagine an intermediate stage where tone contrasts become phonation contrasts (e.g. low tone to creaky voice), it seems very likely (on to see how various Khmer dialects are doing it).

Are there instances of tone contrasts becoming phonation contrasts, rather than the other way around?

(Bonus points if they aren't due to language contact.)

It is said to be rare, but might be found in Quiaviní Zapotec according to Hiroto Uchihara.
And we don't know exactly if Danish stød comes from the tonal contrast found in Swedo-Norwegian, represents a previous stage of it or arose independently. I think.

Frislander wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am

dhok wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:29 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:22 am
Is there precedent for interactions between vowel tone and quality?

Salishan seems to have some examples of this, browsing the Index Diachronica: e.g. Chilliwack Halkomelem appears to have undergone *ú *á > á ɛ́. However it also looks like there may have been interference from ablaut patterns...

Also the acute in Salishan is a stress marker, not a high-tone one.

Not here; I converted the superscript numerals found in the Index Diachronica to acutes. There are other quality shifts in low- and mid-tone vowels.

dhok wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:00 am

Frislander wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:13 am

dhok wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:29 am

Salishan seems to have some examples of this, browsing the Index Diachronica: e.g. Chilliwack Halkomelem appears to have undergone *ú *á > á ɛ́. However it also looks like there may have been interference from ablaut patterns...

Also the acute in Salishan is a stress marker, not a high-tone one.

Not here; I converted the superscript numerals found in the Index Diachronica to acutes. There are other quality shifts in low- and mid-tone vowels.

Why on earth do they reconstruct Proto-Salishan with tone? Is there even a single Salish language which has tone as opposed to stress? I must have a look at the source given in the Index.

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 pm I vaguely recall something about Chatino getting its tones from vowels rather than from consonants.

Do you happen to remember any more details? I'm interested in tonogenesis due to vowel cheshirisation.

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:26 amDamnit, only one person away from being the first to mention vershaerfung!

Yes, Verschaerfung is a thing in the alps - iirc it also applies in some Germanic dialects, as well as Romance ones. /j/, and sometimes /w/ > /G/, /g/ or /k/ before consonants. And those glides in turn are often created by vowel breaking.

Also found in Late Cornish. Based upon its distribution, one monograph on language change I read years ago singled it out as the kind of innovation most likely to take root among smaller speech communities, which would seem to make it unsuitable for Hanying.

One significant change which is hypothesised to have affected a larger linguistic area and had the effect of lengthening short words is vowel reduplication in proto-Mande. Essentially, syllables of form *CvC became *CvCv where *v has the same quality in both syllables.

The same phenomenon happens on a more limited scale in Modern Welsh where final syllabic sonorants tend to acquire vowels with similar quality to the stressed vowel in the word, e.g. ochr > ochor, llyfr > llyfyr, cefn > cefen.

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:26 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 pm I vaguely recall something about Chatino getting its tones from vowels rather than from consonants.

Do you happen to remember any more details? I'm interested in tonogenesis due to vowel cheshirisation.

I don't, and I can't seem to find my notes on Chatino anywhere for some reason, sorry. (But I'll definitely let you know if I do find anything).

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:37 pm

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:26 amDamnit, only one person away from being the first to mention vershaerfung!

Yes, Verschaerfung is a thing in the alps - iirc it also applies in some Germanic dialects, as well as Romance ones. /j/, and sometimes /w/ > /G/, /g/ or /k/ before consonants. And those glides in turn are often created by vowel breaking.

Also found in Late Cornish. Based upon its distribution, one monograph on language change I read years ago singled it out as the kind of innovation most likely to take root among smaller speech communities, which would seem to make it unsuitable for Hanying.

There are some large European languages where word-final /e i/ can take paragogic -ç. It's not quite the same, but at that point all you need is fortition.