Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

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bradrn
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

The detail here is astonishing. I’m excited to read more about this!

A couple of quibbles:
Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:10 am It is undoubtedly for this reason that the island of Vanuatu was able to support at least 140 distinct languages in an area smaller than that of metropolitan Sydney, while the entirety of Europe boasts only a few dozen vibrant languages.
This, alas, is completely wrong. ‘The island of Vanuatu’ is nonexistent: Vanuatu is composed of more than 80 islands, spanning roughly the distance from Sydney to Brisbane. By François’s count, the largest island (Espiritu Santo) has 37 languages, and the second-largest (Malekua) has 41. That doesn’t take away from your overall point, though.
Mitsiefa people have sixteen heads with a hundred bulbous green eyes each, forty-foot-long poisoned tentacles and the ability to teleport through miles of solid rock and spark hydrogen fusion in their stomachs
…in which case, why should their language follow any kind of human universals at all?
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Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:15 am The detail here is astonishing. I’m excited to read more about this!
Thankyou! I'll try to keep the detail up, but the phonology really is the main thing for this lang.
A couple of quibbles:
Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:10 am It is undoubtedly for this reason that the island of Vanuatu was able to support at least 140 distinct languages in an area smaller than that of metropolitan Sydney, while the entirety of Europe boasts only a few dozen vibrant languages.
This, alas, is completely wrong. ‘The island of Vanuatu’ is nonexistent: Vanuatu is composed of more than 80 islands, spanning roughly the distance from Sydney to Brisbane. By François’s count, the largest island (Espiritu Santo) has 37 languages, and the second-largest (Malekua) has 41. That doesn’t take away from your overall point, though.
Well now, I wouldn't call that completely wrong. I can add just a single s and it'll be true as anything. And it's still smaller than Sydney.
Mitsiefa people have sixteen heads with a hundred bulbous green eyes each, forty-foot-long poisoned tentacles and the ability to teleport through miles of solid rock and spark hydrogen fusion in their stomachs
…in which case, why should their language follow any kind of human universals at all?
There may have been some (slight) exaggeration involved in that description.
bradrn
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:09 am
bradrn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:15 am
Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:10 am It is undoubtedly for this reason that the island of Vanuatu was able to support at least 140 distinct languages in an area smaller than that of metropolitan Sydney, while the entirety of Europe boasts only a few dozen vibrant languages.
This, alas, is completely wrong. ‘The island of Vanuatu’ is nonexistent: Vanuatu is composed of more than 80 islands, spanning roughly the distance from Sydney to Brisbane. By François’s count, the largest island (Espiritu Santo) has 37 languages, and the second-largest (Malekua) has 41. That doesn’t take away from your overall point, though.
Well now, I wouldn't call that completely wrong. I can add just a single s and it'll be true as anything. And it's still smaller than Sydney.
Speaking as a Sydneysider: Sydney may be big, but it’s not that big. From east to west it’s ~60 km, whereas Vanuatu spans roughly 870 km.
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Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:28 am
Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:09 am
bradrn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:15 am

This, alas, is completely wrong. ‘The island of Vanuatu’ is nonexistent: Vanuatu is composed of more than 80 islands, spanning roughly the distance from Sydney to Brisbane. By François’s count, the largest island (Espiritu Santo) has 37 languages, and the second-largest (Malekua) has 41. That doesn’t take away from your overall point, though.
Well now, I wouldn't call that completely wrong. I can add just a single s and it'll be true as anything. And it's still smaller than Sydney.
Speaking as a Sydneysider: Sydney may be big, but it’s not that big. From east to west it’s ~60 km, whereas Vanuatu spans roughly 870 km.
Metropolitan Sydney area: 4775 sqmi
Vanuatu area: 4707 sqmi

Obviously I'm not including the sea area because people tend to live on the dry bits.
bradrn
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:48 pm
bradrn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:28 am
Darren wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:09 am

Well now, I wouldn't call that completely wrong. I can add just a single s and it'll be true as anything. And it's still smaller than Sydney.
Speaking as a Sydneysider: Sydney may be big, but it’s not that big. From east to west it’s ~60 km, whereas Vanuatu spans roughly 870 km.
Metropolitan Sydney area: 4775 sqmi
Vanuatu area: 4707 sqmi

Obviously I'm not including the sea area because people tend to live on the dry bits.
Ah… right, thought you were including sea as well.
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sasasha
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by sasasha »

This conlang is fascinating, and beautifully presented. I love the way it sounds. Thank you for sharing.

My favourite word is this:

/eɑiɑ-eɑiɑ/ IDEO. "hissing"
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foxcatdog
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by foxcatdog »

Small consonant inventories appeal to me but i'm in favour of something more standard and a bit bigger then what you are going for.

*p *t *k
*s
*w *j
*m *n
Is great

And Amarin's inventory is cool but a bit larger.

*p *t *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ
*r *l
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ
Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

sasasha wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:08 pm This conlang is fascinating, and beautifully presented. I love the way it sounds. Thank you for sharing.

My favourite word is this:

/eɑiɑ-eɑiɑ/ IDEO. "hissing"
Thanks! I've enjoyed making the ideophones – I would of ended up with less parts of speech if I hadn't included any, which would of made Mitsiefa more "minimalist" in a sense, but they're too much fun not to include.
foxcatdog wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:52 pm Small consonant inventories appeal to me but i'm in favour of something more standard and a bit bigger then what you are going for.

*p *t *k
*s
*w *j
*m *n
Is great

And Amarin's inventory is cool but a bit larger.

*p *t *k *kʷ
*s *sʲ
*r *l
*j *w
*m *n *nʲ
I wouldn't say Mitsiefa has my favourite set of consonants. I'm more of a fan of six- to eight-consonant inventories, which have the added bonus of being more realistic. Obokuitai, NWMek and Pawnee are some of my favourites.

Code: Select all

    t  k     p  k     p  t  k
 b  d           g        ts
    s  h     m  ŋ        s  h
             β           r  w
             w  j     


On the topic of (Ckiri) Pawnee, it seems it might be another oft-overlooked example of an eleven-phoneme language:

Code: Select all

 p   t   ts  k
         s       h
 w   r

 i       u
     a
Douglas Parks's grammar says /ʔ/ is produced through some complicated phonetic rules but is non-phonemic. In fact it's almost possible to analyse out /p/ too, since morphophonology says
  • w → p / [# obs] _
  • k → Ø / _ [obs]
Which means initial [p] could be analysed as /w/, post-obstruent [p] as /w/, and intervocalic [p] as /kw/. But then Douglas doesn't mention this and it seems there might be some exceptions to initial /w/-hardening so I'm not so sure. I still think there's a better case for Pawnee being a 10-phoneme language than Pirahã, let's put it that way.
Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

Great news is upon us! I have discovered another 6-consonant inventory natlang, the Elema language Orokolo:

Code: Select all

 p  t  k
          h
 m
    l
The source is A. H. Brown's The Eleman language family. This agrees with all our universals (fwiw the vowel inventory is /i u e o ɔ a/, nothing special), although there's still some interesting points to it. There are four levels of sonority, although no one POA contrasts more than two. Likewise there are (again speaking strictly) four POAs, which means only 38% of the 16 possible "slots" are filled. Being more lax you'd group /m/ and /l/ together, since both have nasal ([m n]) and oral ([β l~r]) allophones:

Code: Select all

 p  t  k
 m  l
       h
Interestingly /h/ reflects a historical collapse of all of */f s h/ → /h/; in other words it just merged 38% of its phonemes together. Toaripi, a related language, has /p t k f s h m l/.
bradrn
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:18 am Great news is upon us! I have discovered another 6-consonant inventory natlang, the Elema language Orokolo:
Astonishing! Looking at a sample, I find it quite hard to believe this is TNG at all.

EDIT: Pawley and Hammarström (in The Languages and Linguistics of the New Guinea Area) seem to doubt a relationship with TNG. I’d tend to agree.
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Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:39 am
Darren wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:18 am Great news is upon us! I have discovered another 6-consonant inventory natlang, the Elema language Orokolo:
Astonishing! Looking at a sample, I find it quite hard to believe this is TNG at all.

EDIT: Pawley and Hammarström (in The Languages and Linguistics of the New Guinea Area) seem to doubt a relationship with TNG. I’d tend to agree.
Yeah, I'm no expert, but TNG seems fairly shaky at the edges to me.

Something else funny about Orokolo – the phoneme /t/ is very rare, popping up in only 1.05% of words, and pretty much only intervocalically following /i/ and preceding /a/. This figure matches very nicely with the sample you gave, where only 8 words out of the 650 have /t/ in them, and even then it's only 3 different words ita, itavape and hitolo. If we go by total frequency rather than word occurences we get:

/l/ [n~l~r] - 39% (of all consonants)
/m/ [m~β] - 23%
/k/ - 15%
/h/ - 15%
/p/ - 7% (I believe about the same frequency as English's fifth-most common consonant /d/)
/t/ - 0.7% (the same as English's second-rarest consonant /θ/)

In fact that's quite reassuring; it means /l/ is considerably more common in Orokolo than /b/ is in Mitsiefa. And it lends credence to the possibility of five-consonant inventories; Orokolo's really 99.3% of the way there.
Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

Here's the frequencies for some other 6 consonant languages:

Obokuitai (b t d k s h)
d – 39%
k – 22%
s – 14%
b – 12%
t – 9.1%
h – 5.2%
Iau (b t d k f s)
d – 40%
b – 21%
s – 16%
f – 8.4%
t – 8%
k – 5.6%
Rotokas (p t k β ɾ g)
t – 34%
ɾ – 33%
β – 20%
k – 8.2%
p – 4.7%
g – 0.2%
North Mekeo (b k β m ŋ l)
ŋ – 28%
m – 22%
k – 22%
b – 18%
l – 7%
β – 1.9%
And to recap, Orokolo (p t k m l h)
/l/ – 39%
/m/ – 23%
/k/ – 15%
/h/ – 15%
/p/ – 7%
/t/ – 0.7%
Notes:
- Take these data with a grain of salt; they're from varying sample sizes and qualities, although in all cases continuous text not wordlists.
- /d/ is common in Obokuitai because it's also the only coda; it's even more common in Iau despite Iau having only coda /f/. 40% is nuts.
- In three of the languages, one phoneme acounts for around 40% of all consonants which is crazy.
- In two languages there's a phoneme with a frequency under 1%, which is very unexpected. Rotokas /g/ seems to be even rarer than Orokolo /t/.
- It seems frequency distribution is fairly random; Obokuitai drops off smoothly, Iau drops rapidly then suddenly levels off, Rotokas has two very common consonants then drops off steeply, NMek has a plateau in the middle, and Orokolo drops of smoothly save for a mini plateau halfway through.
- The nature of the consonants preferred or disprefered is completely random. Stops are favoured in Obokuitai and Iau, but dispreferred in Rotokas and Orokolo; nasals are very popular in NMek and Orokolo, the two languages they actually appear in. Coronals are the most common consonant in Rot, Oro, Ob and Iau, but /l/ is fairly uncommon in NMek.


What 7-consonant languages are there? East and West Mekeo, Namia and Sikaritai I think? (Weird that there's more 6C langs than 7C langs)

East Mekeo (p k ʔ f m ŋ l)
ŋ – 28%
k – 22%
p – 16%
ʔ – 12%
m – 9.7%
f – 6.0%
l – 5.7%
West Mekeo (p k b g m ŋ l)
ŋ – 26%
g – 21%
m – 13%
p – 12%
k – 10%
b – 8.8%
l – 8.3%
Namia (p t k m n l r)
k – 20%
l – 19%
r – 16%
m – 14%
n – 12%
p – 11%
t – 7.2%
Sikaritai (p b t d k s w)
k – 27%
b – 19%
d – 18%
t – 13%
p – 9.1%
w – 8.1%
s – 6.1%
At this point I can't help quoting a brilliant gloss in the Sikaritai discourse paper I got my sample out of:
David L Martin wrote:They just looked up. THE SCROTUM was hanging down. Hanging down very big.
On a more serious note, there's much of the same again. Namia is unusually non-steep, without any super-rare or super-common consonants. The top frequency tends to be closer to 30 than 40, and there's no very low-frequency consonants. Now it's velars that have their time in the sun, and coronals which are dispreferred. Basically I think there's no relation between how common consonants are cross-linguistically and how common they are in a given language. And I feel like maybe Mitsiefa could do with dropping the frequency of one consonant a bit so its not so shallow. I'll try and not use so much /k/ in the future.
Darren
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Re: Darren's scratchpad

Post by Darren »

Before I go on to the next section, I'll give a brief outline of how I see the grammar panning out from here. It's fairly difficult to order since Mitsiefa doesn't have any morphology and has weird phrases – the "comment phrase" seems to be a single syntactic type but the "topic phrase" definitely isn't, which causes me some confusion. But I think I'm fairly happy with this:

​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 3. ​ Clausal syntax (comments, topics, reciprocal clauses, existential clauses, subordinate clauses, questions)
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 4. ​ Nominal phrases (pronouns, NPs, particles and APs, nominal compounds)
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 5. ​ Comment phrases (the verb complex incl. SVCs, various modifiers)
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 6. ​ Ideophones (extra-clausal ideophones, ids. as comment modifiers, distinctive ideophone phonemics)
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 7. ​ Multi-clausal constructions (tail-head linkage, causation, modality, etc.)
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 8. ​ Semantics (topic marking, use of mi and e, generic nouns, politeness, more BS like that)
​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ 9. ​ Sample texts (yeah this is never gonna happen but we can hope)

Hopefully by posting this I'll have some incentive to actually write it all up, but we'll see. Since I don't know what I'm doing with anything that isn't phonology, input will always be appreciated.
Darren
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by Darren »

I have found out how to produce syntax trees. Note that this does not mean I know how to make them, I just know how to make it look like I can:

Image

Is that how it works? Hopefully that should demonstrate the difference between sentences S1.7b and S1.7a. If not please feel free to correct me — not only am I not formally trained in syntax, I'm not even informally trained.


(https://ironcreek.net/syntaxtree/)
bradrn
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:35 am Is that how it works?
Depends on which theory of formal syntax you believe in. Yours doesn’t seem to fit into any one particular theory: it’s just a pre-theoretical representation of the general sentence structure.
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Darren
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:29 am
Darren wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:35 am Is that how it works?
Depends on which theory of formal syntax you believe in. Yours doesn’t seem to fit into any one particular theory: it’s just a pre-theoretical representation of the general sentence structure.
Does it make sense?
bradrn
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:30 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:29 am
Darren wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:35 am Is that how it works?
Depends on which theory of formal syntax you believe in. Yours doesn’t seem to fit into any one particular theory: it’s just a pre-theoretical representation of the general sentence structure.
Does it make sense?
With the caveats I mentioned, yes, it does.
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Darren
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:41 am
Darren wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:30 am
bradrn wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:29 am

Depends on which theory of formal syntax you believe in. Yours doesn’t seem to fit into any one particular theory: it’s just a pre-theoretical representation of the general sentence structure.
Does it make sense?
With the caveats I mentioned, yes, it does.
Good enough!
Travis B.
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by Travis B. »

One trap to avoid getting yourself into as theory goes is getting sucked into x-bar theory, as we all know that x-bar theory predicts that all languages are underlyingly English.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Darren
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Re: Darren's Mitsiefa Thread

Post by Darren »

An interesting case of a claimed six-consonant inventory in the Austronesian language Yuanga (New Caledonia) – Stephen J. Schooling describes it has having the following consonant phonemes:

Code: Select all

 p   t   k
 f   θ   x
But then adds onto this seven suprasegmentals – aspiration, labialisation, retroflexion, palatalisation, nasalisation, nasalisation and nasalisation – which (he claims) apply at the syllable level to produce the surface phonetic inventory. Which is

/p pʷ t ʈ c k/
/pʰ pʷʰ tʰ ʈʰ cʰ kʰ/
/mpʰ mpʷʰ ntʰ ɳʈʰ ɲcʰ ŋkʰ/
/f θ x h/
/fʰ/
/m mʷ n ɲ ŋ/
/mʰ mʷʰ nʰ ɲʰ/
/w l j/
/wʰ lʰ jʰ/

While it's a bizarre analysis, it's the biggest discrepancy between consonant phones and phonemes I've ever seen – on average more than 6 distinct realisations of each phoneme. And yes, obviously it's complete bunk.
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