Zompist Bboard Again

Yeah, turkey makes so many soaps that some of ours are co-produced with turks, turkish companies, and even whole plots: 'mi mamá ve la turca' in chile is easily understood to mean 'that subgenre of turkish soaps'.

This makes me wonder, in parallel... do all countries produce soaps? i know many latin american countries do: mexico, colombia, blabla. I don't know that there's a strong difference between latin american soaps and soaps from elsewhere, though admittedly i haven't seen many so it could be: the few american ones I've seen (probably the higher end stuff, like when calls the heart) seems rather similar in formula.

Torco wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:39 pm Yeah, turkey makes so many soaps that some of ours are co-produced with turks, turkish companies, and even whole plots: 'mi mamá ve la turca' in chile is easily understood to mean 'that subgenre of turkish soaps'.

This makes me wonder, in parallel... do all countries produce soaps? i know many latin american countries do: mexico, colombia, blabla. I don't know that there's a strong difference between latin american soaps and soaps from elsewhere, though admittedly i haven't seen many so it could be: the few american ones I've seen (probably the higher end stuff, like when calls the heart) seems rather similar in formula.

A big difference between American soaps and the telenovela is that American soaps can go on indefinitely, even lasting decades, whereas telenovelas (to my knowledge) have a predetermined story arc and length, generally lasting a year or less. However, thematically they are quite similar overall.

I wanted to go back up-thread and take a moment to answer Torco’s question about the difference between “community colleges,” “colleges,” and “universities” in the United States; in my experience, these are fairly distinct categories (albeit somewhat fuzzy at the edges).

(I should state up front that these are my own observations, and may be incorrect, especially since my own university days are long past. Any ZBB members who attend and/or teach in higher education in the US may feel free to correct me.)

Community college: Grants two-year associate’s degrees and certain professional certifications or licenses, but not four-year bachelor’s degrees; publicly funded, primarily by state and/or local governments (Wikipedia says that there are private equivalents, usually called “junior colleges,” but I am not familiar with any). Normally fairly small, although they may have multiple campuses within a given area. Do not normally offer living accommodations on campus. Relatively inexpensive, by the standards of American higher education (many now participate in programs that offer some students free tuition). A large percentage of students at community college are working full-time and taking classes on a part-time basis, and they offer schedules to help accommodate this (i.e., evening and weekend classes).

Some students take courses and/or get an associate’s degree at a community college, then go elsewhere to complete a four-year or higher degree. (This is what my wife did: she took part-time classes at two local community colleges over several years while working full-time, then attended a four-year college full-time for two years to earn her bachelor’s degree; her previous courses transferred over, so did not have to take the full four years.)

College: Grants four-year bachelor’s (“undergraduate”) degrees, but usually not more advanced (“graduate”) degrees (e.g., master’s and doctorates, medical degrees, law degrees). Usually relatively small (no more than a few thousand students), and most often private non-profit institutions; many of these are “private liberal arts colleges,” which focus on the arts, humanities, and social and natural sciences, and less on career-oriented or technical programs. More likely to have all or most students attending full-time and living on campus.

The College of Wooster in Ohio, where I received my bachelor’s degree, is an example. It was founded in 1870 as the University of Wooster, and had several graduate programs, including a medical school; however, it reorganized in 1915, deciding to focus on undergraduate arts and sciences, and was renamed the College of Wooster

University: Grants both four-year bachelor’s degrees and more advanced degrees; sometimes very large (Ohio State University, where I received my master’s, has some 50,000 students on its main campus alone); may be publicly or privately funded; usually includes several specialized divisions, such as a medical school, law school, business school etc. (Confusingly, these divisions may sometimes be called “colleges”; e.g., the College of Arts and Sciences at Ohio State University.)

In answer to Torco’s other question, the terminology is not necessarily a matter of prestige; there are four-year colleges that are nearly as selective, prestigious, and (in the case of private schools) expensive as the prestigious universities; some examples that come to mind are Williams College in Massachusetts and the Claremont Colleges in California. It would be probably be rare for a Nobel Prize winner to teach at one, but perhaps not unheard of. (Generally speaking, faculty at community colleges and four-year colleges focus more on teaching than research; faculty at universities also teach, but there is a greater emphasis on performing research and additional pressure to have one’s research published.)

As noted, the boundaries between these categories can be fuzzy: there are, e.g., community colleges that offer some four-year degrees and colleges that offer, say, master’s degrees, but these are normally in a limited number of subjects.

The references to private colleges and universities above primarily apply to private non-profit schools funded by endowments and donations. There is an entirely separate sector of for-profit colleges and universities (especially in the last few decades, although the sector is smaller than it used to be). I know less about them, although many have a reputation for being more uneven in their quality and/or financial stability.

Finally, one peculiarity of American English is that the word “college” is also used as a blanket term for higher education in general: if one is taking courses in higher education, whether at a college or university, one says, “I’m in college.” (If one is only a part-time student, the more usual expression is “I’m taking classes at [name of school]”). I know from an American relative who lives in Australia that Australian English includes the expressions “at university” or “at uni”, but these are not normally used here.

(I apologize for the length of the above post, but it more or less wrote itself in my brain, and I felt as though I had to get it out.)

Glenn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:58 am I know from an American relative who lives in Australia that Australian English includes the expressions “at university” or “at uni”, but these are not normally used here.

Correct, ‘at uni’ is the usual expression here. ‘College’ has always felt weird to me… the word isn’t used much here, and when it is, it doesn’t necessarily have that meaning of ‘institution of higher education’. (e.g., the school where I went to primary and high school called itself a ‘college’.)

(I can also mention that in South Africa it’s called ‘varsity’, which is a word I’ve rarely heard elsewhere.)

Glenn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 6:58 am
(I apologize for the length of the above post, but it more or less wrote itself in my brain, and I felt as though I had to get it out.)

No need to apologize. In a thread that's about collecting information, the more information, the better.


(Oh, and I'm afraid my idea of US community colleges is still very much shaped by the Dean's speech at the start of the first episode of Community.)

Torco wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 4:39 pm This makes me wonder, in parallel... do all countries produce soaps?

I only know of one German daily soap, it has the very original title Gute Zeiten - Schlechte Zeiten ("Good Times - Bad Times") and runs since over 30 years on the private TV station RTL. I watched some episodes when my grandma was following it in the early 90s; since then occasional glimpses when channel hopping have confirmed that it still exists. It's the usual mix of romances blossoming and breaking up and convoluted intrigues in some undefined (I think) German city.
The most famous soap was a weekly soap called Lindenstrasse, centered on a fictional street of that name in Munich; it ran for about 30 years from some point in the 80s on the First TV channel.
I don't know whether any of them had any international success.
In any case, from what German shows I notice, Germans seem to be much more into police procedurals or courtroom / lawyer dramas (not to mention the so-called "Reality TV") than into the romance / intrigue stuff.

I think Gute Zeiten - Schlechte Zeiten was originally copied of an Australian soap, though they eventually split the plotlines. It had a couple of imitators for a while; I don't know if it still does.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:02 am (I can also mention that in South Africa it’s called ‘varsity’, which is a word I’ve rarely heard elsewhere.)

We have the word in the US, but it means the main team representing a college or high school in competition. I had to look it up— I just knew it was associated with sports.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 3:16 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:02 am (I can also mention that in South Africa it’s called ‘varsity’, which is a word I’ve rarely heard elsewhere.)

We have the word in the US, but it means the main team representing a college or high school in competition. I had to look it up— I just knew it was associated with sports.

Many high schools and colleges/universities in the US have both a varsity team (the main one) and a "junior varsity" team, composed of younger and/or less experienced players; the junior varsity players either serve as backups to the varsity players, or play separate games against other junior varsity teams (or possibly both; I have the impression that this varies from place to place). The term "varsity" (in the US) is used mostly in reference to this split, where it exists. I hadn't heard of the South African usage before.

The Wiktionary entry for "varsity" says that it is derived from "university" (by way of an older pronunciation, "univarsity"), which is something I never imagined, in part because my high school had varsity and junior varsity teams (at least in (American) football; I'm not sure that this was true of other sports), but my (undergraduate) college did not, so the term had always been firmly associated in my mind with high school.

Relatedly; I was listening to a radio show the other day, about Starksy & Hutch. As it happens, it was way more of a success in France than it was in the US; partly because the dubbing improved on the original.

I think the same happened with South Park; the French dub is a lot better - in my opinion - than the original. (If you're curious, they use a wider cast -- I think the original version just has Trey and Parker -- they often improve the lines, and the delivery is better.)

Glenn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:42 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 3:16 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:02 am (I can also mention that in South Africa it’s called ‘varsity’, which is a word I’ve rarely heard elsewhere.)

We have the word in the US, but it means the main team representing a college or high school in competition. I had to look it up— I just knew it was associated with sports.

Many high schools and colleges/universities in the US have both a varsity team (the main one) and a "junior varsity" team, composed of younger and/or less experienced players; the junior varsity players either serve as backups to the varsity players, or play separate games against other junior varsity teams (or possibly both; I have the impression that this varies from place to place). The term "varsity" (in the US) is used mostly in reference to this split, where it exists. I hadn't heard of the South African usage before.

The Wiktionary entry for "varsity" says that it is derived from "university" (by way of an older pronunciation, "univarsity"), which is something I never imagined, in part because my high school had varsity and junior varsity teams (at least in (American) football; I'm not sure that this was true of other sports), but my (undergraduate) college did not, so the term had always been firmly associated in my mind with high school.

To me the distinction between "varsity" and "junior varsity" is really a high school sports thing, not a college (as in university) thing.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:39 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:34 pm snip

Amalgamating these, adding one and making a list for 90s UK:

Known:

The Flintstones, Superman, Bugs Bunny, Road Runner, Woody Woodpecker, Yogi Bear, Star Wars, Star Trek, various Westerns, Peanuts (including animation), The Addams Family, Monty Python (obvs British anyway), Dr Who (ditto), Bewitched, Sesame Street, Donald Duck, David Letterman, Saturday Night Live, Game of Thrones, The Sopranos, Buffy, The Simpsons, Lara Croft, The Sims, Casablanca, Linda Ronstadt, Ayn Rand, Jeopardy, Dr Phil, baseball (known of ‒ but certainly not followed), ditto American Football (know it exists, but nothing more), The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Stephen King, Asimov, Frank Herbert

Not known:

Mr Magoo, Wally Gator, Gilligan's Island, The Munsters, Archie, I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, Bill Cosby, Mary Tyler Moore, Mr. Rogers, Bob Newhart, the Fonz, Archie Bunker, the Three Stooges, Beetle Bailey, Seinfeld, GlaDOS, Farmville, Reading Rainbow, Stephen Colbert, Rush Limbaugh, Blazing Saddles (though I came across it in the 2000s), Tony Bennett, Nancy, Family Circus, Doonesbury, Family Feud, Farenheit (assuming this is a show or other cultural artefact? If the temperature gauge, we’ve heard of it, but we mostly wouldn’t use it), nascar (no idea what this is), Paul Bunyan, US soaps (except Dallas which I had heard of but had no idea about. We were all just hooked on UK soaps, plus Neighbours and Home and Away).

Just to broaden things a bit, here's a list of German and French TV shows that most Americans would know:

Movies and books would be a longer list, especially for France. Though I'm not sure if any French novelist is known here past Camus. Houellebecq, I guess, though I think he's obscure. Very rarely the Oulipo writers. The deconstructionists were the terror of the academy in the 1980s... you couldn't write a term paper without referencing Derrida... no idea if they're still big.

(I've actually read a French novel from this millennium! But that was because its author asked me to translate it.)

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:50 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:39 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:34 pm snip

Amalgamating these, adding one and making a list for 90s UK:

Known:

The Flintstones, Superman, Bugs Bunny, Road Runner, Woody Woodpecker, Yogi Bear, Star Wars, Star Trek, various Westerns, Peanuts (including animation), The Addams Family, Monty Python (obvs British anyway), Dr Who (ditto), Bewitched, Sesame Street, Donald Duck, David Letterman, Saturday Night Live, Game of Thrones, The Sopranos, Buffy, The Simpsons, Lara Croft, The Sims, Casablanca, Linda Ronstadt, Ayn Rand, Jeopardy, Dr Phil, baseball (known of ‒ but certainly not followed), ditto American Football (know it exists, but nothing more), The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Stephen King, Asimov, Frank Herbert

Not known:

Mr Magoo, Wally Gator, Gilligan's Island, The Munsters, Archie, I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, Bill Cosby, Mary Tyler Moore, Mr. Rogers, Bob Newhart, the Fonz, Archie Bunker, the Three Stooges, Beetle Bailey, Seinfeld, GlaDOS, Farmville, Reading Rainbow, Stephen Colbert, Rush Limbaugh, Blazing Saddles (though I came across it in the 2000s), Tony Bennett, Nancy, Family Circus, Doonesbury, Family Feud, Farenheit (assuming this is a show or other cultural artefact? If the temperature gauge, we’ve heard of it, but we mostly wouldn’t use it), nascar (no idea what this is), Paul Bunyan, US soaps (except Dallas which I had heard of but had no idea about. We were all just hooked on UK soaps, plus Neighbours and Home and Away).

I repeated this with my partner, as it was quite interesting to observe the differences (also UK, 2 years younger). I added MTV, Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Marvel, Harley-Davidson, NFL. Notable swapsies were The Munsters, Mr Rogers, the Fonz, Family Feud, Nascar, Peanuts, Letterman, Jeopardy, Dr Phil. They didn’t have satellite TV growing up; I did but only for a couple of years.

Known:

The Flintstones, Superman, Bugs Bunny, Road Runner, Woody Woodpecker, Yogi Bear, Star Wars, Star Trek, aware of Westerns but couldn’t have named any, The Addams Family, Monty Python (obvs British anyway), Dr Who (ditto), Bewitched, Sesame Street, Donald Duck, Game of Thrones, Buffy, The Simpsons, Lara Croft, The Sims, baseball (known of ‒ but certainly not followed), ditto American Football (know it exists, but nothing more), The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Stephen King, Asimov, Frank Herbert, The Munsters, Mr. Rogers, the Fonz, Farmville, Family Feud, nascar, MTV, Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Marvel, Harley-Davidson, NFL.

Not known:

Peanuts, The Sopranos, David Letterman, Saturday Night Live, Mr Magoo, Wally Gator, Gilligan's Island, Archie, I Love Lucy, Casablanca, The Honeymooners, Bill Cosby, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Archie Bunker, the Three Stooges, Ayn Rand, Jeopardy, Dr Phil, Beetle Bailey, Seinfeld, GlaDOS, Reading Rainbow, Stephen Colbert, Rush Limbaugh, Linda Ronstadt, Blazing Saddles (though I came across it in the 2000s), Tony Bennett, Nancy, Family Circus, Doonesbury, Farenheit (assuming this is a show or other cultural artefact? If the temperature gauge, we’ve heard of it, but we mostly wouldn’t use it), Paul Bunyan, US soaps (except Dynasty which they had heard of).

We both have always known US currency but never understood US coinage.

Glenn’s insights on US “college” are really useful!

sasasha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:16 pm We both have always known US currency but never understood US coinage.

Ooh, don't get me started on your old system... pounds, guineas, farthings, half-farthings, groats, shillings, ha'pennies, mites, coppers, pence, tuppence, thruppence, fuppence, bobs, nobs, florins, crowns, fivers, pieces of eight, kopecks, mathoms, beans, boggies, narks, sovereigns, nigels, and viscounts.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:05 pm
Movies and books would be a longer list, especially for France. Though I'm not sure if any French novelist is known here past Camus. Houellebecq, I guess, though I think he's obscure. Very rarely the Oulipo writers. The deconstructionists were the terror of the academy in the 1980s... you couldn't write a term paper without referencing Derrida... no idea if they're still big.

(I've actually read a French novel from this millennium! But that was because its author asked me to translate it.)

French literature isn't quite what it used to be, to be honest. Houellebecq can be fun to read if you're in a certain mood, but he's not Camus.
French intellectuals, especially those that were active in the 70s still seem hugely influential in American academia. The interesting bit is that many of them are quite obscure here. I don't think anyone reads Derrida here. Conversely, Americans don't seem interested in Bourdieu, who is still hugely influential.

Many high schools and colleges/universities in the US have both a varsity team (the main one) and a "junior varsity" team, composed of younger and/or less experienced players; the junior varsity players either serve as backups to the varsity players, or play separate games against other junior varsity teams (or possibly both; I have the impression that this varies from place to place). The term "varsity" (in the US) is used mostly in reference to this split, where it exists. I hadn't heard of the South African usage before.

My highschool also had something called the "C squad". The varsity squad (AKA the "A squad") was juniors and seniors, the junior varsity (AKA the "B squad") was sophomores and juniors, and the C squad was freshman. They played games against other schools C squads, and acted as backups to the junior varsity squad.

I think the same happened with South Park; the French dub is a lot better - in my opinion - than the original. (If you're curious, they use a wider cast -- I think the original version just has Trey and Parker -- they often improve the lines, and the delivery is better.)

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... mbers#List , Trey Parker and Matt Stone have done almost all the male voices. Many different women have done the female voices.