Zompist Bboard Again

Thanks for the replies, everybody.

You memorize the main streets.

Despite the grid that my city generally follows, that is what you have to do here too, because the minor streets don't always continue all the way without being interrupted, especially when they meet the new car-centric neighborhoods on the edge of the city, where they are discontinued, and only the major (arterial) streets on the sides of the neighborhood are continued.

We have a numbering system, so if you're going to a new place that's not on a main street, you only need to learn the street it's on: the other coordinate is given by the street address.

Indeed, my city's street address includes that too.

Also also, we actually have a public transit system, which I generally prefer... city driving gets old.

Unfortunately, my city (like many American cities) has very poor public transit, so I'm basically forced to drive. The buses come to a stop only once per hour, so if you get off at a stop to shop and it takes you only 15 minutes to shop there, you're forced to wait for another 45 minutes for the next bus, which is very inconvenient and wasteful of time. Also, there are no trams, and certainly no subway.

* West of Pulaski, streets are alphabetized, for some reason going from L's to N's only.

Looking at the map, it looks like they go up to P. (But maybe that's technically not Chicago anymore?) Also, some streets, but not all, seem to be in alphabetical order, and there's some outright exceptions, like Sayer Ave, but at least generally if you're looking for a street that starts with N, you know that you've overshot it if you hit the O's.

i have to say i'm surprised at your surprise that streets hace names instead of numbers!! i don't know that i've ever been to a city where moat streets were numbered, that's a new one for me

If it makes you feel any better, the new car-centric neighborhoods of the city are doing their best to undo this, by filling their unwalkable neighborhoods with streets that break the grid, are shaped as loops, courts, and dead-ends, and have name names instead of number names.

different cities will follow different patterns. the fact that the pattern in one city is different from the pattern in another doesn't mean either is "illogical". part of learning to navigate is learning which patterns are local and which patterns are more broadly applicable

Yes, I was a bit crude with how I used the words "logical" to "illogical" here. Anyways, I just assumed that because grids lend themselves to a 2D numbering system so well, that every city with a grid layout would use one (the coordinates being split between the numbered street name and the block part of the address), but I was wrong.

Torco wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 3:11 pm santiago has no logic vis a vis street names: what's even worse, the same street changes name randomly as you go along its length: for example the main street, if there's one, is variously called, as you go from its west to its east endpoints, pajaritos, alameda, providencia and then apoquido.

Oh, we have this too, though mostly for the really long main roads. Sometimes they make it easier by giving the whole route a number… except no-one ever uses or knows the numbers. For instance, the A3 road (a main arterial in Sydney) is, from north to south: Mona Vale Rd, Ryde Rd, Lane Cove Rd, Devlin St, Church St, Concord Rd, Homebush Bay Dr, Centenary Dr, Roberts Rd, Wiley Av, King Georges Rd.

(In fact, I had to get this list off Wikipedia, because I myself only know the first three names. Past that it’s simply ‘that road you take to get to Homebush / Olympic Park / Ikea’.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 8:12 pmMona Vale Rd, Ryde Rd, Lane Cove Rd, Devlin St, Church St, Concord Rd, Homebush Bay Dr, Centenary Dr, Roberts Rd, Wiley Av, King Georges Rd.

daaaaamn. then again, there's something to be said for this system, annoying as it may be: it's more expressive once you master it: it tells you a lot more if I say I live in wiley than it does to tell you I live up the A3.

city planning idea: giving the same street multiple thematic name: north to south, a street could be called shave road, a couple of kilometers down change to haircut avenue and the last bit two piece drive.

Torco wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 9:48 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 8:12 pmMona Vale Rd, Ryde Rd, Lane Cove Rd, Devlin St, Church St, Concord Rd, Homebush Bay Dr, Centenary Dr, Roberts Rd, Wiley Av, King Georges Rd.

daaaaamn. then again, there's something to be said for this system, annoying as it may be: it's more expressive once you master it: it tells you a lot more if I say I live in wiley than it does to tell you I live up the A3.

Do note that the whole route is 51 km long, so giving it a single name would be really non-descriptive. Although it probably doesn’t need quite as many names as it has now.

(Then again, the Pacific Highway is 790 km long without a name change, so it’s not exactly like we’re allergic to single-named roads…)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 10:05 pmDo note that the whole route is 51 km long, so giving it a single name would be really non-descriptive. Although it probably doesn’t need quite as many names as it has now.

(Then again, the Pacific Highway is 790 km long without a name change, so it’s not exactly like we’re allergic to single-named roads…

same here, our ruta cinco, the chilean bit of the panamerican road, covers something like 3 megameters, and it's all the "ruta cinco".

intercity routes are another story...
in France, they are numbered,
and start at point zero,
on the square in front of Notre Dame
(but in Paris they have street names...)
to the four corners of the hexagon...

xxx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:00 am to the four corners of the hexagon...

A fascinating expression. I was always under the impression that hexagons had six corners.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:08 am

xxx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:00 am to the four corners of the hexagon...

A fascinating expression. I was always under the impression that hexagons had six corners.

Though it's still a bit jarring, I assume xxx is thinking in French, where l'Hexagone is a way of referring to France.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:05 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:08 am

xxx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:00 am to the four corners of the hexagon...

A fascinating expression. I was always under the impression that hexagons had six corners.

Though it's still a bit jarring, I assume xxx is thinking in French, where l'Hexagone is a way of referring to France.

Oh, I know. Still a fascinating expression.

(It’s not actually France, though: l’Hexagone is specifically metropolitan France.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:16 am (It’s not actually France, though: l’Hexagone is specifically metropolitan France.)

yes, France is in the four corners of the globe...

xxx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:29 am yes, France is in the four corners of the globe...

And spheres don't have corners!

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:16 am (It’s not actually France, though: l’Hexagone is specifically metropolitan France.)

But how far does the road numbering system of metropolitan France extend? That of Britain doesn't extend beyond Great Britain, whereas I think car registration numbers are unique throughout the British Isles.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:16 am

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:05 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:08 am

A fascinating expression. I was always under the impression that hexagons had six corners.

Though it's still a bit jarring, I assume xxx is thinking in French, where l'Hexagone is a way of referring to France.

Oh, I know. Still a fascinating expression.

(It’s not actually France, though: l’Hexagone is specifically metropolitan France.)

And each corner of l'Hexagone hosts a minority language: Flemish in the north, Alsacian in the northeast, an Italian dialect in the southeast, Catalan in the south, Basque in the southwest, and Breton in the northwest. Then, there are of course Occitan, Arpitan and Corsican, which is essentially another Italian dialect.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 6:10 am But how far does the road numbering system of metropolitan France extend?

to the borders...

Weeping Elf wrote:italian dialect

uh... tuscan dialect...

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 6:10 am But how far does the road numbering system of metropolitan France extend?

Which one? France has a national road numbering scheme, but some of those are also E-roads which extend outside the borders of France. (The UK's road network is included in the E-road system, but we don't signpost them because we're lazy and tended to keep Europe at arm's length even when we were part of the EU.)

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:13 pm France has a national road numbering scheme, but some of those are also E-roads which extend outside the borders of France.

these are freeways that are not part of the urban network...

xxx wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 6:23 am

Richard W wrote: ↑Sat Aug 31, 2024 6:10 am But how far does the road numbering system of metropolitan France extend?

to the borders...

To the borders of what? France? Metropolitan France?

the continuous nature of a road,
there is only one solution...
the one illustrated...

Germany does have numbers for motorways and major roads, but while the motorways only have numbers, the numbered major roads have names, too, but these names change a lot and are independent of the numbers.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 02, 2024 6:50 am Germany does have numbers for motorways and major roads, but while the motorways only have numbers, the numbered major roads have names, too, but these names change a lot and are independent of the numbers.

Ah, so precisely the same as the Australian situation. I’d be curious to know how often people there use the numbers vs the names. (Here we use numbers for roads which only have numbers, but names for everything else.)